#66 Real Conversations with Mothers and Daughters

Jen  00:00

Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries podcast with your host, myself, Jennifer Maneely. I am really excited about this episode for today, it's gonna be a really unique episode. So my mom and I were talking to this other mother daughter team who's gone through a similar journey and really wanted to do a podcast with one another. And we thought it was going to be a really cool conversation, we wanted to talk a lot about the family dynamics and some of our experiences of what it's like to kind of adult with one another as parent and child. And sometimes that can be really complicated, especially with mothers and daughters. And so we knew it was going to be a really powerful conversation. And we decided to do something different than just record, a simple podcast. And we actually opened it up to a live audience. And we invited people in just to be a fly on the wall and listen to some of this conversation. And it was just an awesome, raw, real conversation between two mothers and daughters. And I am excited to bring you my own mom, Lynn Carnes. And then Christine Dixon, and her daughter, Lauren Martinson. So I really hope that you enjoy this podcast. And please, always remember that there is always hope, even when things seem the most hopeless.

Lynn  01:42

Well, welcome, everyone. Jen, Lauren, Christine, and Lynn here for a live podcast with the mother daughter conversation. And, you know, I was thinking about what started this, we're actually really here. And the reason we're live is just for the realness of this conversation. I mean, if you think about it, who would have ever thought it would be hard to be real. And yet, when I think of a lot of Mother Daughter relationships, I know, including my own at different times, both with my mother and with my daughter, they haven't always been real. And so I'm excited that we're coming here. But we're not coming here for those of you listening. Because we think we've got it all figured out. We're just two sets of mothers and daughters that have been on journeys that are sort of similar, and we want to share that with people. And we also want to celebrate and explore the journeys that we have been on. Maybe for the sake of having a better relationship, you know, what does it mean to have an adult relationship? And I think, Christine and Lauren, when I met you, that's what struck me was that you all have an adult relationship, which Jennifer and I've worked so hard on. And Christine, I also think about that moment when we were in the podcast Summit. And the one of the presenters said, something about mothers, and the relationship people have with their mothers, and you could feel it in the room. That so many people have this experience. It's not necessarily great with the mothers and daughters. So I think about, you know, I went back to my own mother, who I'm not going to bring into this conversation because she's not around anymore. It's but this is about Gemini, but we had an experience. When she was in we were both in a barn working with one of my trainers. And all of a sudden, the trainer said something to Jan and Jan ran out of the barn, and we think she was crying. And the trainer looked over at me, she goes when what just happened? And I said, I don't know, I think maybe you hit one of her mommy buttons. And so we sat there puzzling, knowing that she was outside crying and wondering, okay, what? What was this? And in a few minutes, she came back ends and said, Okay, I'm, I'm ready to work again. And then later, I asked her how she brought herself back. And she said, I've been reading Brene Brown's books, and I can almost hear Brene Brown's voice and me saying, Don't let this run you. And I thought, Oh, this is good. Like, it was one of those moments for Jen showed up as an adult. So that's kind of what we're here to do. And so with that,

Christine  04:32

I wouldn't say not all adults have that skill yet. So

Lynn  04:36

you know, what's, you know, what's interesting, I just, I just, you know, we were about to introduce ourselves, I just was having this conversation with corporate executive that stuck in you know, parent child dynamics at work. And so how is, you know, one of the things we want to talk about is how to parent and child actual parents and children do better than just a basic parent child dynamic of power over and under. That's what One of our conversations that we want to have here. And you know, we just want to help make our relationships better. I can't wait for this conversation. So for tech, for technicalities, we are recording this for those of you who are on and watching. Cool, welcome. We're glad to have you. And for those of you who are listening after the fact, we're glad to have you as well. For those of you who are on we're also going to hold a little bit of time at the end. Probably we're on I'm on Eastern time. So I'm going to use that time 230. Eastern, we may switch our conversation into q&a with through the chat. So if you're familiar with Zoom, there's a chat feature just plug in your questions or comments or thoughts, and we'll try to keep an eye on that. But there's a lot to manage here with four people as well. So well, if we're not on it right away. That's because we're we're still trying to manage everything. So and if we get a lot of questions, by the way, we have already talked about this might be something we do again, first of all, because I just love talking to the three people that I'm on this conversation. As you all know, it's like I want any excuse to be on, on a conversation with them. Same. So with that, we're going to start with introductions. And I don't know should I I'll start with since I'm talking I'll start with just my introduction. As you all know, I'm Lynn Karns. My, my daily life looks like this. I have a nine month old puppy that I've been training since she was a little puppy. I get up every day and have to take care of her I try to get in a good hike or a water ski every day. ride horses every day, occasionally fly airplanes every day. And some once I get those big rocks on my calendar, I put coaching clients on the calendar. And I had a coaching client here for a two day retreat this week. When we finished it three o'clock on Tuesday, I ran out and water skied and then I wouldn't got on a horse and then I came back and train my dog. So that's the kind of life I live in. It's kind of who I am and what I do. So who wants to go next?

Lauren  06:58

No one wakes you up first. I couldn't follow that up. I'm like, Oh my God, my life is so boring.

Lynn  07:11

Not hardly. I know better.

Lauren  07:16

 I'm Lauren Martinson and I live in Los Angeles. And my day to day life is much simpler. I would say that I really work to be able to travel. So a lot of my day to day is kind of, you know, simple in a lot of ways just so that I can have those big moments of travel and exploration and whatnot. But yeah, my day looks like going for a walk in the morning, meditating, seeing some clients throughout the day, and then sort of scrambling to get organized and clean up and take care of my fur baby, which is Draco Malfoy, my adorable kitten. And yeah, that's about me. Well,

Jen  08:04

Christine, I'm volunteering you.

Christine  08:07

I was about to volunteer you because I was like, oh, no,

Jen  08:10

I spoke first. So you get I volunteered you first.

Christine  08:12

Okay. All right. So, um, my name is Christine Dixon. I live just I live just outside of Los Angeles on a horse property with my horses, my chickens, my cats, and my dog. And I work as a transformational mentor, using clinical hypnotherapy and Equine Assisted coaching. And predominantly, I work with people who have experienced pathological relationships, either with their parents, their children, or their love relationships, and how that plays into addiction as well. So I am kind of, I guess, I get really jazzed about what I do. I do go for walks, too. I have the Angeles National Forest right here. So I take my dog for walks, I go for walks to do stuff like that. And I do love to travel but mostly Yeah, it's about being around the animals and working with clients and just being a student of life.

Jen  09:26

Awesome. Well, my name is Jennifer Maneely. And, you know, I try to model a lot of my life after my mom, I think my mom has pretty cool life, but I'm still also in a very different place in my life, which means I still, you know, try to get up in the morning and do some things. And I work a lot with families that have loved ones with substance abuse issues. And that was mostly born from our my mom and I's journey together through that. And we've we've won Learning grown a lot in the way and, and so that's kind of where where that came up. And I had someone, because I do a lot in my day to day life. And had someone asked me one time she goes, Man you like to? How are you have? So like, how do you even pack it all in? I say, Well, I guess it's because I only do the things that I want to do. So everything that I do are the things that I want to do. And I may do a lot of stuff. But it's all because it's the things that I want to do. So I look forward to everything I do. So that's kind of kind of my life. So living in North Carolina as well.

Lynn  10:37

Yeah. Yeah, Jen and I have the good fortune to live close to each other. I'm not even sure we made it clear, whose mother and whose daughter most people are. But we have the good fortune to live close to each other. And if there's any enabling going on now in our world is Jennifer enabling me to? To do what I need to do like taking care of my dog when I'm gone? Or we have chickens to Christine, I love chickens. But Jen is the one who makes sure they get up every night. So yeah, I get to enjoy the eggs. She gets to enjoy all the work. Nice. Well, we thought we'd start we know this conversation is gonna go this way. Who knows what this is, you know, we know it's gonna go deep, but we thought it would be fun to start with some favorite memories. So Jen, can you take it away with your favorite childhood memories with each other? And we don't we did this unplanned y'all we don't know. Who's which memories coming up.

Jen  11:36

Yeah, well, that was surprised. Yeah, that's the fun of it. Right? Is having that raw. So you know, transparency sake, we were talking and it's like, Okay, what's the format of all of this? And what's the topic? So I think we each kind of, you know, pick something. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about, especially because when we're talking about having real and raw conversations with mothers and daughters, it can immediately almost make you feel like, Oh, this is gonna be really tense conversation, right? And, and I was like, well, but it doesn't have to be because I have so many great and wonderful memories. And I have my My favorite memory. And this is the memory that comes up often for me when I think about, like my childhood and all this and even my mom doesn't know, but I go back. I we were living in Charlotte. And we were living in the apartment, the colony apartments. Yeah, it was calling apartments, right. And there would be so many nights that we would throw on you to dance around the living room with our hairbrushes singing like crazy. So and mom was always the lead singer. And I was always like her backup person, right in the YouTube. And I think I can't, it's escaping me this song. But it was the and the name of love in the name of love was the warm, I want to steal one of my more favorite songs because of that memory. Because I just remember like, it's just like, in that moment, we let everything was gone. And it was we just had so much fun together. So that was when I think about my childhood. I think about my favorite memory. That memory is the one that constantly comes up for me.

Lynn  13:27

Okay, well already, I'm over clamped, because that was my memory. And I was gonna talk. I don't believe that's what I was like. Had in the name of love. And there was one night when we were both, like we got in the rhythm, dancing. And this was a this was a time. In my life. I was a corporate executive at Bank of America, we had moved across the country. We were 1000 miles from any family, the only family we had around us was these other like, uptight banking people. It was just you and me and them, you know, and a lot of us had moved from Texas to North Carolina in this timeframe. So we kind of had known each other but we were feeling a little bit like we were on an island. And we'd sit there in that apartment dancing. And I remember one particular night where I just felt free. Not so uptight. You know, for the first time in a lot of my life and I felt connected to you like I might have been actually doing right by you. Because one of the things I didn't talk a lot about in those days, you wouldn't know cuz you didn't need to carry this burden. You were like, what were you eight years old?

Jen  14:34

Nine years old.

Lynn  14:35

I was not very old. Yeah. And you didn't need to carry the burden of me going, oh my god, am I screwing it up? Are we okay? Are we going to make it like, you know, but that particular memory was magical. So that was my memory to

Jen  14:49

write. Wow. So I mean, that's amazing. But I think yeah, in that moment, Something definitely happened. I guess for both of us. Apparently. I was dissipating that too. Your, your memory as well, because that's the one that stood out so much to me where it was like, I just felt so connected in that moment. Yeah, like everything's gonna be okay. So,

Lynn  15:09

you know those little moments, man, those are those are treasures. So cool, Jen. Yeah. All right,

Jen  15:16

I gotta go to the next I know I'm going to the next daughter, because I want to hear the daughter's first.

Lynn  15:21

Good job.

Lauren  15:25

I think mine is when we lived in Yonkers, New York, and we had a bunch of extended family come stay with us for Christmas. And it was one of our bigger Christmases that we had, because we're kind of a small family. It's just my it was my brother, my mom and I. So when we had all the family together, there was just something about that, that was so magical. And that's probably why I'm so obsessed with Christmas because of that association. So I would say that that's my, one of my fondest memories.

Christine  15:53

She is obsessed with Christmas. Mine is going to be kind of not your usual. Lauren was a very fearless child. And when she went to this small, little private school for a period of time, I got a phone call from the school that Lauren and her friend had gotten in trouble. And they had been locked in a room. And they decided to break out of the room by climbing through the ceiling, to which they fell through the ceiling into the teachers lounge. Now the call you would normally get and but I know she probably didn't get in some kind of trouble. But I was always so impressed by how fearless that she was. And I mean, she used to love to do those rock climbing walls. Remember that she was with you like nine or something. And she was at the next to the last rock at the top. And her her body is shaking her. And she's like, ah, try to get that last one. I mean, she just was this fearless little girl and I just adored that about her.

Lynn  17:33

I've been at the top of rock climbing wall, the first time I ever made it to the top and because I always was chickening out. And I was shaking like that. And it was how I learned to repel because I had two choices either try to climb back down with no muscles. Or, or just go ahead and let the rappelling work. Because I was anything but fearless. Well, I want to transition. So first of all, isn't it funny? What makes what sticks with us? You know, there's a there's an understanding in brain science that the limbic system that it takes emotion to create a memory. And the stronger the emotion, the stronger the memory. The thing about that is oftentimes it's our worst memories to that make it you know, really stick. We can think about things like that. But when I think about the word fear, I think about my own experience as a mother was often driven with fear. And so, you know, what that did was make me very controlling. So Jan, you might, you might identify with this. And I may ask you to speak to it. But a lot of Jim's life, I was trying really hard to be perfect. And not look bad as a mother mainly to my mother. And so what I wonder in Jan is like, what, when did you recognize that? I was struggling as a mother like were you are were you in high school? Or did it not hit you until much later? Because I know for me, it was a long time before I realized that my mother was a human to like she was something else. And you know, there was a point at which Jennifer finally I think could see me as as not something else. Does that make sense? Does that question make sense, Jim.

Jen  19:41

So this is this is what I'll say is I don't know that it ever, ever struck me out. struck me as something where you were ever struggling as a mother I don't think I ever thought that. I don't ever think even like growing up even when I got older I would I didn't ever sit back and go, Oh, my mom is struggling as a mom,

Lynn  20:04

right? Like not as a young person, I would think no.

Jen  20:07

Well, not even as an adult, honestly. I mean, I don't know that I ever saw it now. That being said, because there was two different questions, they're struggling as a mom versus seeing you as a human. Now, I saw you as more human, when you sat down and told me that Santa Claus didn't exist, though. That was that was kind of my first moment. I'm going, Oh, mom's human. And not this superhero. person, because you just dashed everything about Santa Claus. And I say, yes, that's funny. And yes, I'm also being a little serious, too.

Lynn  20:53

Well, that was, you know, I actually remember the moment we were in that same apartment and Charlotte, and we were watching Major Dad. This will tell y'all when we were in Charlotte, if you remember that show, and they they on that show said something about Santa Claus, not existing. And this is what Jennifer turned and said to me. She said, Wait a minute. They said Santa Claus doesn't exist. I know he exists. Because you told me he does. And you would never lie to me.

21:20

Ouch. Oh,

Lynn  21:22

and then I'm like, well, now how the hell am I supposed to tell her? And, you know, we actually had a fair bit of issues with lying. Probably me lying to you as much as you lied to me. By the way, Jim.

Jen  21:35

Right. I was a big, fat liar. When I was a kid. I was a big fat liar when I got to be an adult to for a long time. So

Lynn  21:45

yeah. Yeah. So you know, so Christine, Lauren, why, and what have you guys experienced around like the beginning of the dawning awareness of who each other is and what I'm thinking about just as in the parent child dynamic, you know, it's sort of like the child is always under the parent. So they're always looking up to the parent. And it doesn't always necessarily, they don't always necessarily see things for how they are because of their vantage point.

Christine  22:21

Do you want to go first, Lauren?

Lauren  22:22

Yeah, I was gonna say I actually really relate to what Jen said, I really relate to that. Like I never saw my mom is struggling, either. Like it was kind of like, life was coming at her. And I just was like, she knows what she's doing. She's got this. You know, like, I remember even I was thinking about this yesterday, a time when we lived in Maryland. And we had no couch for like, the longest time. But like a year, I think. And then my mom's like, there's a couch outside. We're bringing it in. And it was just like one of those moments where she was like, oh, things will just fall into place. And it just never seemed like a struggle. It just seemed like she just took it and just carried on and she would make it work. I mean, we were never hungry. We're never starving. She just somehow made it work. And even when we were alone a lot because she couldn't afford a babysitter being a single mom. Even then, I just felt like it was it was normal. And that she just trusted me and that I was mature enough to do it. So yeah, I and I think that I still struggle today with the idea of her being human. And I have to check myself on that still. And you know, my boyfriend even sometimes it's like, yeah, it feels like you didn't have that like, oh, yeah, mom is human kind of moment. And I was like, I have I've had those moments, but I still can get lost in the Oh, Mom Knows Best. Mom, mom take the lead. So yeah, so that's something I struggle with and something I have to I have to really talk myself through because I have to also humanize her, I have to give her a break. You know, sometimes I find myself not giving her breaks. I'm like, You should know better. You should be better.

Christine  24:06

And we all know who the parental FIDE child is. Right? You know, I will say that it wasn't like there weren't times like when Lauren had to, you know, she was the older it was her and my son and she's the older one that, you know, some of responsibilities landed on her as a kid and it's not like I didn't know that. But when you are just struggling to survive, like I would just go like, this is how I would you know, do it in my brain. I'd be like, Okay, well, you know what? In Vietnam, women have children while they're out in the rice paddy work and they gotta bundle it up and get back to work like there are worse things in this world. then this and I don't have any support or way to change this. So I will just do the best that I can with a crappy situation. And it doesn't, it's not like you don't feel the weight of that. And the older I get, the more I realize how much that affected them. But at the time, when you're, you know, a very young mom, and it was just about I remember going around just feeling like, I can't believe I'm doing this, like I can't believe like, it's working. We're still here, everyone's still alive, you know? But yeah, so this was what was the question? Again, my brain is just gone.

Lynn  25:45

Jan's the one who figured out what the question was.

Christine  25:49

What What was it?

Jen  25:49

What was it? Brett? Well, and it mostly pertains, because it kind of pertained into, you know, struggling? When did we first see struggling as a mom? Okay, versus, and of course, I separated the questions, which was struggling as mom versus seeing mom as human.

Christine  26:07

So when I realized I will, I will kind of manipulate the question a little bit, because I will say that when I realized that Lauren and I were a meshed was when it was probably about eight years ago. And I think Lauren probably remembers the timeframe, too, because she had, she had a boyfriend that was not that great, right? So the dynamic that would play out is that Lauren would call me first, she would hide that there was a problem. And like, just put her big smile on an act like everything was fine, even though everyone's going. And then she would call me for that mother dollar talk to kind of unload everything that's been happening. But if I said anything about the situation, she would attack me, more judging him. And I knew you do this. And it would be you know, that whole conversation. So we had some of these going. And then I said, You know what? I think that you are smart enough, brilliant enough, intuitive enough to know the answers to your own questions. And I don't think that you need me in the way that this is playing out. So why and we talked, we did talk about this, but the idea is like, how about you try. And you try to work on this issue, and you try to do what you know, and feel is the right thing to do. And if you have a question, you can always come to me, I'm not unavailable to you. But we saw the dynamic of her not taking the initiative and being able to do things and make these decisions without coming to me, but then I would be the bad guy too. And it was just this whole dynamic. And we got when we did this, we both experienced this sadness and fear that that meant we weren't going to be as close. That That meant that somehow we were pulling away from each other, instead of having the relationship evolve. Away from the parent and child dynamic where like, you have to ask mom, every Lauren used to actually get teased, like, we're gonna go tell your mom now. She talks to me about everything. But it was important because then if she doesn't get a chance to even make decisions, or make mistakes, even in the sense of like, realizing, oh, that decision wasn't the best, I'm gonna have to go back and make a different one. She's never going to get the confidence in herself. And it'll just be this constant need for me to figure it out. But then to push back against me. And that was a real turning point in our relationship. When you say alone, yes, you remember that conversation?

Lauren  29:28

I actually don't, but I totally remember feeling I remember the feeling of like, trying to dance on that line of I want to tell Mom, I want events, but then I also don't want her to know too much. Because then she'll form an opinion about this person. It'll be harder to be around her and this person. So I remember doing that. So I don't doubt what you're saying at all.

Christine  29:51

Which is actually the dynamic around abusive relationships because we don't tell people that what is actually happening and we hide to protect the user, because we know that people would be like, wait, what? Yeah.

Lauren  30:06

And they're gonna change. We just need it like behind the scenes try to change them, help them get better, they can change them.

Lynn  30:14

So, Christine, I think this is one of those places where you and I first connected. When I tell the story of Jane's Addiction on work Schiller's podcast, and you reached out to me, but what struck me just then it's that part where as mothers, we had to do some of our own work, because we're not perfect. And in my case, wasn't the I, you know, not only was I not perfect, I hadn't really grown up in some ways. And it was my self awareness work that freed me to be there for Jim the way I needed to be for her. And it strikes me that you didn't do you didn't have that conversation with your daughter from nowhere? How did you come to be able to have that conversation with Lauren?

Christine  30:59

Well, I think that would go back to my mother, because my mother was a high level borderline personality disorder alcoholic. So you're talking about a hurricane, that then you just pour gasoline on top of so it was really important for me to be the opposite of that. So I really, like in other words, very truthful, to maybe where like, I shared too much truth with her when she was maybe too little do you know, I mean, like trying to balance that. I don't know how well I did it that but I always wanted to tell the truth. I always wanted to acknowledge her experience and her feelings. Because if anybody knows that people listening know about pathological relationships and pathological people, you are an extension of them. So I was never allowed to have my own thoughts, feelings or anything with my mother, because she just saw me as she owned me. And they're very intuitive about how you're thinking feeling or anything. So you don't need you don't if you feel like you even have your own thoughts. So being able to validate her, even if she thought that is an experience or something that happened, her recollection was different. I always wanted her to be validated that her experience was her experience and, and her own. And I didn't have to make her experience mine. And I was okay. If I looked badly in her view of what the experience was. And I could own that, and I could apologize for that. But I didn't feel like it made me less than to be honest and say, Yeah, I probably didn't handle that. That great. You know, you see people all the time. They, it's kind of like, we'll go back to the Brene Brown thing, right? Where you said like, Brene Brown? Yeah, Brene. Brown says to people look, being vulnerable, feels like you're shrinking and melting and being weak. But to other people, it looks like courage and the truth. And it's like inspiring. And I think that that's, that's really important in our mother daughter relationships, because I think parents often times feel like if they admit there was something wrong, or that they did something that wasn't right, perfect, right, something that hurt the child, that somehow by admitting it. They're now vulnerable to attack right there. They now shrink in the child's eyes or in their own eyes. But there's nothing more beautiful and transformative than owning the things that weren't perfect and allowing the child to have their experience without having to try and fix it or, you know, sell them like Well, yeah, I know that you felt that way. But really, this is what was happening. So you don't that's not your job. Your job is just to listen and to validate. And to allow it to be what it is.

Lynn  34:36

Yeah, well, that's. That's what we all aspire to, I think, but it's easier said than done. Lauren, what was it like for you in that conversation? But did it feel like your mother had freed you or abandon you or something else?

Lauren  34:53

In the conversation about my boyfriend?

Lynn  34:55

Yeah, because I would I would fear that Jennifer would think I was abandoning her would be the Example is why I use that word. You know?

Lauren  35:04

I think that it was more about like, oh shit, I am responsible for my life. I think that that's really what it was. It was like, Oh, wait, you're not going to guide me even though you're trying to guide me I'm rejecting it Yeah, I think like, very much like a, you're an adult now, you know, voices to make and no one can do it for you. And you know, and I did I did make those that choice You know, I finally relationship luckily, like and, and it's funny how when you're in those relationships, how you feel like you need to build a case. And that's what I feel like I was trying to build like I needed like, I needed a real reason and proof and it needed to be like indisputable, and, and then finally that moment came where I was like, ah, there it is. There it is. He actually was verbally abusive to me call me names. Okay, now I can now I can leave. Yeah.

Lynn  36:03

Yeah, that whole good chat. I've got to justify Yes, bit. Yeah, yeah.

Christine  36:09

You got that for me. I mean, you know, for sure.

Lynn  36:12

I have it in spades, too. I think it's pretty common. Actually. You know, that, Jan, that their story kind of reminds me of the moment where I did something similar with you in the middle of your drug addiction. And this was I told this story in depth on warrick's podcast, but I Well, should I just tell the story, since we have people listening, I think I should tell the story. Because people people have are listening that wouldn't have I don't want to make them have to go all over. So. And this would be 16 years ago, because Jan just celebrated 16 years clean. I was at a on a business trip in DC and she had bailed on having dinner with me the night before. She was married at the time. And we were expecting her to be moving to another apartment because they couldn't afford the one day we're in. And I called her the next morning to check in on what had happened with her car because it was theoretically a wreck that she had had that caused her to bail on dinner, couldn't get a hold of her. So almost got on an airplane to come home because I was going to get to be on the early flight that night, but got a strong, intuitive message, go find her and extended my rental car, change my flight and drove from DC to Winchester and discovered through a series of events that there had been no wreck that Jennifer and her husband had not even begun to move out of their apartment. And that she was on drugs again. And she had been in rehab once before. As I started recognizing what was going on, I asked Eric to I found air Eric, her husband actually I found him first and said Take me to her she was with his parents. And I actually had to threaten to call the sheriff to get him to do it. I said Eric, take me to my daughter or I'm calling the sheriff now. So I followed them over to the house. And I saw the cycle in place, I could see that with his him and his parents. And with Jennifer, I'm looking around going they're gonna wring their hands, and nothing's gonna change. They're these two kids are going to keep doing drugs forever until they die if they don't keep things up, so I looked at, I looked at Jen, after about 30 minutes of sort of assessing the situation and I said, I said, Jen, I, I'm pretty sure that you are doing drugs, because you have a lot of resentments for me. And I've earned every one of them. I said I will i am ready to face what I did as your mother. But if you think killing yourself is going to destroy my life. Take another look. I get teary every time I tell this story because I know it saved her life. I said take another look because my life is pretty good. And it's not my life you're destroying it's yours and I am strong enough to live without you. And I left not knowing if that was going to make any difference at all. But knowing that that was the only thing that would have could have made a difference. And I'll never forget because I drove to Dulles Airport that night and found a massage therapist. You know those little 15 minute guys and I dumped all of my emotions on him I said when when he went when it was like 3030 minute massage or whatever that he did did on me and when I was finished I just looked at him and said you better go clear yourself because I just dumped a lot of shit on you. But the next day Jen came back and said she was going to go to rehab. And then it was, I don't know, Jen, how many years later was it for you before you said, you told me that that actually did make a difference for you.

Jen  40:14

I don't remember how many years later it was I just because I think it took me a while. From that point. When I got into, you know, back into rehab, I was still kind of unsure if that was going to be my life, if that's what I wanted, because I had already decided that I was going to die. And so I was like, kind of already good with that. So I was like, I don't know if I can do this. So it definitely took me a little while for everything to kind of sink in and start looking back and saying, Well, this was the pivotal moment, or this was a pivotal part of this, because it was like, I was just trying to explore if I was even going to be willing or capable of living a life without, you know, using something to cope with. It was like I don't even know anymore. And I was so raw, it took a long time for me to actually go okay, I think this is going to be my, my my life. And so it's probably I mean, cut it had it had been at least a year before I could look back on that moment and say that was a huge moment. With it all looking at probably even longer than that. Because I think it wasn't until I kind of moved away. Before I was able to kind of go, Okay, I think this is my life. Now this, this is what we're doing. Because I was even even being clean, clean for a while I

Christine  41:57

was still

Jen  42:00

really struggling, I guess, emotionally, it just it wasn't very clear to me where my life was going. So it was, yeah, it was a tough, tough period. But there was a day when I had, it's probably when I left and I was moving and I was on my way back to this area from Virginia, where I had the thought in the car of going, you're gonna have to figure out how to be happy. And I think it's a choice. Like, it was like, it's a choice, right? I feel like being happy is a choice. And I'm gonna have to go figure out how to make choices that will lead to my happiness. And it was that day where I was like, I think I choose happiness. And that that was another pivotal, you know, moment for me. And that that didn't happen until I had over a year clean. And I had moved away and I was like I'm gonna go choose to be happy. Yeah. And then I started looking back on everything else.

Christine  43:11

Well, this story was the story that had me reach out to Lynn. Because when I listened to her story on wor X podcast, I was working exclusively in addiction. And I was working mostly with the people struggling with addiction. But I also worked with families. And it was something that you saw all the time, where the child or even a husband or wife was doing this at a person we call it drinking at someone right or using at someone because they don't, they haven't found better coping mechanisms are ways to deal with what they haven't been able to deal with so but trying to explain to a parent, that the way, the best thing that they can do to help their child is to take themselves out of the picture so that there's nothing to push against. I'm no longer going to do the dance with you, right? I'm going, I'm going to pray for you, I will always you get clean, you want to go the route, whatever, I will be there. But I'm not doing this. Because what happens is, is that when you no longer have that place to put all of your anger and bitterness and resentments and all of that. There's no place now you're alone with your thoughts and your life. And your choices really are only affecting you. It can help the person help the person have more clarity about what they're doing to themselves. It's not a punishment at all. And I think When I heard Lynn like, all I thought was, Wow, that is one of the first times I've actually watched someone step into that role because the thoughts as a parent are, what if this is the thing I do that kills them? What if they would have now she goes, Well, if I don't have my mother, I might as well just, you know, take all the drugs and because you never know, but you don't break the cycle. If you don't break that racket that's just constantly being run. There is no end to it. You. You have to reach for that lifeline. Yeah. Which I would say I want one thing I wanted to bring up and you guys can tell me what you think about this. A very, very good friend and mentor told me a long time ago, she said to me one day, she said, well, there is no guilt without punishment. And I didn't quite understand what she meant. But I'm gonna make up names for them to protect them. But let's say it's my friend Sally and her son Bob, right. So Sally came from a very Italian Catholic family where you don't get divorced. And she added one son, Bob, and Bobby, let's say, and when Bobby was little, she got divorced. And so this big family thought poor Bobby, oh, my gosh, poor Bobby. So Bobby got everything he ever went had dough with. And grandparents had a huge family he was his mother spent $50,000. Back then on his grammar, school education, she's under the best football, she did all these things, because he was poor

Jen  46:53

Bobby.

Christine  46:56

And what happened was, that no matter how great everything was, he came, he absorbed that identity that something was wrong with him, that he was poor Bobby. And he struggled to ever grow up, he got into drugs he had, it's like, because there was all this guilt. And we were in that he was being parented by the extended family from a place of guilt and poor him. He never got to get the sense of seeing himself as complete and capable and able. So you have to really be very aware of when you're parenting from guilt, because it's really destructive. It doesn't do what you think it's doing. Like you think, Oh, I'm gonna rush in and like, prove to my child how much I love them by doing this because there is lack here. There's things there. But that it doesn't translate that way. And I think that that's something that is really important.

Jen  48:06

What and I have. So Lauren said something really important, where it was like, Oh, my God, I have to take responsibility for my life. Now, right? And in that moment, back to this moment, to what you're talking about to that moment, when mom kind of said, Okay, you're responsible for your life now, and took a step into that. It did kind of shake me now I still had to make a lot of choices after that. I could have gone just as easily the other way. Sure. Right. And that's not the choice that I made. But I did have to start taking more responsibility for my life. And I'll tell you, from my perspective, my whole life, I got away with poor Jen. And it made it really easy, because I could get out of just about anything was poor Jen and I pulled on those heartstrings with other people, with my mom, with so many people in my life to get my way to get out of trouble to get out of people being angry. I could always shed a few tears and make people feel sorry for me. And it really serves me very well in the poor gin to get to feel sorry for myself to continue doing what I was doing. Right. So

Lynn  49:23

you know, Bobby? Well, I I'm thinking back to how many times I rescued you up until then, like we had to get pretty serious before I recognized my role in the poor Jin Gang. Because you know, you almost didn't graduate high school because you got caught with cigarettes. Remember, I just like hell instead of saying hey, figure it out. Don't smoke again or you're not graduating. I didn't want to inconvenience myself to have you not graduate. So I made sure you graduated and we had story after story after story like I came rushing in. I wouldn't call myself Helicopter mom, I would call myself a trampoline mom. I would run under a she was falling with a trampoline going. Let's not make it hurt too much. Yeah. And yeah, you know, this finally, this is where we ended up partially because I hadn't wanted you to own your life and I was having very real pressure on me to continue to rescue you. You know, I sat with, I remember talking to somebody at one of the ski likes I was at it was the father of the ski coach I was working with. And I told him a little bit of your story. And he said, he looked at me with all seriousness, I said, I believe I would get my daughter out of that situation. And you weren't a grown, you are a grown ass woman married? You're no, you're not really can't do that. But there was a part of me that thought, Should I? Am I screwing up? If I don't?

Jen  50:51

Right? Well, and there was there was a part and this is this one, I'll say is following that, where I don't think you were trying to get me out of that situation. But you were trying to get me out of that situation and sending me out of the state to another rehab when I was already in a rehab. And I actually, this was probably one of one of my personal turning points where it was like, I could leave the state and like go to this really fancy rehab or whatever. Or I could do something different than I've never done before, which was face all of my problems.

Lynn  51:31

Right? Because by the way, that that part of the game back to Christine, what you said, that was my guilt going, Okay, I'm going to send her to the best most expensive place I can find, because then I can be feel like I'm washed and absolved of having done anything wrong. Yeah. And Jen, fortunately stood up because I don't think that we have would have been right for you.

Jen  51:55

Well, and I for some reason, like I knew it was just like, I need to stick through whatever mess that I need to stick through and face really face it. And, you know, I, I did, and it was one of the best things Now eventually, I did move on from that situation. But I moved on because that that chapter had closed in my life, I wasn't running away from that. But you know, kind of back to this whole dynamic of, you know, for for me of just waiting for you to swoop in I'm sure Lauren can, you know attest to this when you're growing up, and you have your mom and all you know, and mom knows best, right? And that's kind of that is a lot of how I felt to where mom just kind of knows best and we lean on, we lean on Mom, we have those conversations, it's like, it just became part of the norm, it just became part of what we do is you just need to tell me what to do with my life. I screw it up, you come in, you kind of, you know, tell me some really good things. And either I listen or I don't or fight against you. And but at least you know, you have to tell me and now I'm going to do things drink at you or just do things you know, against you, then you have to be about drinking or using drugs. It's just as like, well, I'm going to show you that everything that you're saying. It's this weird, really weird, messy dynamic, I'm sure that Lauren can attest to a little bit.

Christine  53:26

I want to hear what Lauren says. But I will say you brought something up really important there which is which is unhealthy ways of getting your needs met by creating problems and drama and chaos so that the person that you have the issues in the relationship with will come swooping in and that's how you're how you're experiencing love. And I think that there was an aspect of that with Lauren night too, right? That where it would be this big problem and then I would come running and I would always be available and then Lauren would feel seen and heard and loved but then we have to keep creating these things to bring that in. But Lauren will also attest to because I learned about the guilt without punishment doesn't mean I didn't still do it. But they always had constant they were the only kids that had consequences when they screwed up because they would always kind of make it nobody else got grounded. Like what your ground. So go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren  54:34

Yeah, no, I was gonna say that actually. I feel like trauma. And like creating just these these scenarios and these situations definitely became like a love language almost, like within itself, and I totally relate with that, like, trying to. It's almost like the intensity aspects being confused for intimacy. And it's like the morons. tend to situation is, the more drama there is. And you swooping in. And now it feels like oh, we've we've made a connection here. And it felt like if I don't have that, if I don't have this, this drama going on, because we grew up with trauma, you know, like, horrible neighbors, horrible teachers, family members moving around all the time, financial situations. My stepdad like, things like that, that were always based around like, oh, no, how are we going to get through this? And we really leaned on each other through those things. So yeah, for me, I feel like there is a subconscious part sometimes that wants to go, Okay. How do we get close to mom? Oh, there needs to be something going wrong in order for mom to come forward. And that's connection. And I know better, because I never feel better after that. Like when we have that connection? Part. Like, it doesn't feel good afterward. I actually feel worse afterward. Like a like a emotional hangover.

Jen  56:02

Yeah, yeah. But that was definitely how I receive love. I love when mom came in, you know, I did. Like she would just come in and take care of all my problems. For me. It was amazing. She's like, well, you just need to move here. Yes, I do. Yes, yes, I do. You know, it was it was great. It was both toxic. And that was how I saw it. Because I think for me, and this is part of the heart conversation, right? Where she was a very busy woman. She was always there for me, though, right? Like, but at the same time, it was like she was swooping in. That's how I really knew that we were connected in love, right? Because the rest of it was just going through your normal daily life. Like she would come she picked me up from school, we'd eat dinner, we'd you know, and I think that's why my that was one of my favorite member memories was in that moment, we were genuinely connected. Without it being anything else outside of we were connected in that moment. And we had a lot of little moments. That was that's the one that stands out to me. But we had a lot of those too. And so it's it is kind of like what Lauren is saying is we're trying to recreate that connection. But if we're not getting it in the healthy ways, then we're gonna get it in the unhealthy ways, right. And when we get older, it looks very different. And I think when I saw when I started growing up into high school and out, it's like, I'm looking for that connection. But she's, it seems so far away from me, because she's like, Okay, you're, you're at a house now go live your life. Yeah. And it was like, no, no, wait, we I'm still the eight year old girl that wants to dance in the living room. Right?

Lynn  57:58

Yeah, I I was just gonna say I think I was projecting on you what I wanted to do myself because I got married at 18 and left home and had much less to do with my parents. I stayed with him. I was in the same town, but I wasn't. You know, I was very independent. And I kind of thought at 18 You were going to basically be gone. Like, you know, I might see you once a month or something at best. And then yeah, yeah. And, you know, I did end up moving across the country and not seeing my folks as much as you, you know, but you and I've taken a different path where you've gotten a bit closer to me.

Jen  58:35

Yeah, force it on you. So that made you say that was not my story. It was not what I wanted.

Lynn  58:44

Yeah. Well, you know what, what for us another element I want to go into in a minute, but I want to go back to something Lauren said because I feel like that's a distinction I'm going to want to.

Lynn  59:39

Action is at the end.

Jen  59:42

Yeah, here you you. Oh, it broke out for just a second. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna pretend like that didn't happen. And I say that again.

Lynn  59:50

For the first time ever. It says my internet connection is unstable. I've never had that here. So what I was saying to about Lauren said something really important. The The feeling you get when the connection isn't from a good place isn't good. And that's a signal that something's up. I think that's really worth calling out.

Christine  1:00:12

Yeah. I don't know if Lauren remembers, I'm sure Lauren remembers this. I, I don't remember the exact details. But I do know that this is probably within the past couple of years. There was something happening where things were playing out between Lauren and I were, we were getting in these fights and like, having arguments. And my perspective was like, there was nowhere I could go in these conversations, because it started to feel like this was coming up as some, you know, feelings of her anger that Lauren had, that maybe she hadn't fully become conscious of, and they were coming out in these ways that felt like I there was nowhere for me to go with this, right. Like, I was just getting, like peppered. And I remember saying to her something along the lines, like, I'm not going to do this with you. If you go to this place where, you know, nothing I say or do is right, and, and everything, then I'm, I'm just gonna hang up until, you know, we can calmly talk about what has happened. And I think that this is a really important part of healing, because it's not us butterflies and you know, rainbows that people don't do things on purpose. But things can bubble up in ways that aren't exactly the best, healthy, most calm way of talking it out. And that was so hard for me to maybe hang up the phone or or say that because it I learned I one thing that's true about both of us, we cannot be happy or calm. If we know the other one is upset with us, right, like, and so being able to do that and go, Okay, I just, I can't do anything in this in this box. So I'm just not going to do this was so hard. And it took a few days, I think for us to be able to come back and really talk about it. Do you remember that Lauren? Oh, cool. I really was traumatizing for her.

Lauren  1:03:02

Sounds familiar? I'm just trying to remember what it was about.

Christine  1:03:05

I don't remember what it was about. But you were mad at me. I wasn't doing it. Right. It wasn't doing anything, right. And I'm not listening. And I'm not. And I was trying my best. And it was just very animated. So I think that when when you work on things, in the way that you communicate, because communication is everything. That you have to have patience with both sides, you have to have patience with yourself, and patients with the other person. And if you feel like you're, you're sliding into those old ruts, you know, those old like everybody knows what the other one's gonna say, because we're back to that argument. We're back to that way of relating that we have to Gree that we're going to tap out in that moment, right? Like, okay, this is going back to the old pattern. Let's take a minute, let's take a day, let's take whatever we need to to like get back to where we can sit down and talk about this again, no matter how many times it takes, so that we break that old pattern. Because that's that's really important. And that's really, you know, even what you did with your conversation with Jen was what you did, there was a pattern that was going between the two of you broke it, and that the thing about breaking the pattern is it opens up a whole bunch of space in the relationship to be able to be different and relate differently. It's making

Lynn  1:04:39

me think about, you know, we're sort of talking about the let's call it fights that we have with our daughters. I guess we actually do have fights with our daughters, Jan. And what year was it Jan about 2016 2017 I actually asked her to come work with me in my business.

Christine  1:04:59

Sorry. Yeah, I only laugh because I ah it's just so open like, I believe it probably, it looks like it works really well for you guys but like it's so late with like landmines? Oh, I didn't know

Lynn  1:05:22

we were about to tell you about, about one of the landmines because one of the things that we decided would be good for me to do is videos that I could do for the coaching clients, you know, that I was working with, I was saying the same thing over and over again to a lot of so it's like, let's record a few videos. So that you can say, hey, go watch my video on this thing, and it'll help you. So we're out. I'll never forget it, we were at the retreat center at over at Mystic waters, the place where I now bring some of my clients in. And I wasn't doing a good job. And Jennifer said, Wait a minute, you're not being very real or something like that. And I made a face of frustration. And it was at myself. This was not directed at Jen in any way, shape, or form. Actually, I was appreciative that she had the courage to say, hey, that ain't good enough. You know, she was being she was

Jen  1:06:15

performing. And I always wanted her to be authentic. And she's like, this is not you.

Lynn  1:06:23

So she just did it. Yeah. But I made a face. And the next thing I know, Jen is gone. Should I ran into the retreat center. And I'm standing out in the parking lot. Well, well, what the hell just happened? Like, I must really be screwing up. And so then I'm like, Well, do I go? And what do I do? Because I thought this was all about me, of course. But we were in a pattern. And the pattern was what we ended up calling mom face. So evidently, when I made the face it myself, Jen, you can pick it up from here. What did that face mean to

Jen  1:07:04

you know, she had that typical mom that mom face that happens when like all of a sudden, like you're that little girl again, I don't care how old you are. And it like it sent me in. And here's the thing consciously. I was aware that it had nothing to do with me. But it was so ingrained that face was so ingrained, it sent me in tears. And I didn't want to make it a thing, even though I had no choice but to be a thing because I ran away in the bathroom. And she's like, I was like it was that face. That face that mom face just hit me out of the blue. And so I just it I had no control over that moment of what my reaction was. It was like, I knew it wasn't personal. I knew it wasn't about me. But I still had to run away and go hide in the bathroom and cry. Because it was it was just so that moment was just so engrained. And now we can laugh at right. We were actually through that landmine though, we were actually able to talk about the mom face, right? And now it looks a lot like, Oh, Mom, you're giving me that face. It'll be like, and it won't even be you're giving me that face. It's just like, out there it is. There's a mom face. And I can just say that, right? And it doesn't send me over the edge. Because we hit that and then we were able to talk about us. And well, this was my experience of what just happened was like you were really, you know, frustrated about so we had plenty of our landmines that did happen. And we had a lot of really difficult conversations that we had to have. Because things weren't working for a while. And a lot of that not working, I'll say was, I don't want to say it was just on my end, because we all we all have responsibilities. Right. But I think it wasn't working and I had to I had to go do some things. Because we were hitting so many childhood things for me the resentments that would pop up. Some of them that I wasn't even aware of, that we had never talked about, because I wasn't aware of them until we were working so closely together. And not to mention, not just working together, but she's also my landlord. Right. oscillation. We are very intertwined into a lot of complicated dynamics here. And when it first started happening, we're first kind of approaching this transition into these very complicated dynamics. It got really hard. And you know, there was a point at which, you know, things were really clear because she had her dad you My grandfather was not doing well. And I don't think we were communicating as openly as we needed to about the future of what all this meant for us. For the business, because this was my livelihood, I was working for her as a W two. This was my livelihood. This was how I paid the bills. And so I felt like some of that was in jeopardy a little bit, even though I was like, I really hope that my landlord doesn't kick me out. Yeah, we're complicated. But yeah, we had to have a lot of really, really difficult conversations. And we did hit a lot of landmines that included having to restructure some things. Yeah. to, but we had to have the conversations. Yeah, right. And you work, hard conversations, the ones that, not only just about how she pissed me off in this moment, but how she pissed me off when I was five years old.

Lauren  1:11:00

I wanted to ask a question for the moms, because I think that it takes a lot of emotional strength, to be able to hear our grievances and sit with them, and process them and, and hold space for us. Because not a lot of parents do that. Parents can get easily defensive and explain themselves. And, you know, maybe even discount the child's experience. So or, you know, chalk it up to you didn't have it bad, you know, people out there have so much worse. Are you kidding me? And I feel like you both really hold space. And maybe that was sort of learned over time. But I'm just curious, how do you frame it in your mind to where you're able to hold space and not take it personally?

Christine  1:11:47

Well, I would say question,

Lynn  1:11:48

a good, great question.

Christine  1:11:55

I can't go back in time and fix and change the things that I would like to, or the things that hurt you or weren't good for you. But the least I could do is empathize, understand and be present for you sharing them so that you don't feel like you now have to convince me that they happened as well. Yeah. And I would say that, Lauren, I think one of the things that makes that makes it hard for Lauren to share things with me isn't that it's not available to her. It's that I think that Lauren also feels very protective of me. And so when she has feelings that have maybe anger or frustration or hurt or anything, I think she's conflicted, because part of her wants to rail at me and tell me what it is. And you know, all that, and then the other part of her wants to protect me from that, too. And it makes it that can make it hard for her to that, you know, so maybe then there's these weird arguments that I have no way out of, because that's how it's, it's showing up?

Lauren  1:13:20

Yeah, my, my displaced anger starts to come out. And it's like, Wait, you're that angry over this or that upset with me over that? Like, yeah, and full transparency. I'm still working with a therapist through that, because I think you're very you're spot on mom, I think it totally is. There's a part of me that feels protective and feels like, and also I think there's that that element of like, well, she should know better than this, you know, so if I, if I am upset, or I don't agree with you on something, it's like she should know better. But who am I to tell her? And then it's like this back and forth. It's still feeling like the kid in?

Lynn  1:13:59

Well, that's, that is the dynamic, isn't it? Like that belief they should know better? And how dare they are? Who am I? And we get caught going kind of back and forth. I know for myself, you asked the question, how not to take it personally. I wrote a whole book about this. Because I did take things personally. I spent a lot of my life thinking everything was about me. And you know, so as as Jen and I started going through this part where we were trying to learn to work together. I did at times take it personally and yet strived to treat her as much as possible like an adult, you know, with the power with dynamic as opposed to power over. And there were times when I was like I don't know what I just did. You know and then she would be mad and I remember another day we were working up at the Pavilion overlooking the the big lawn and like at Mystic waters and She's she's very accurate arm she threw her water bottle and hit the post very accurately, because she always had a very accurate arm. But I was like, What the hell did I just do? You know. And so it was sometimes confusion. And then there were just times when I had to realize, you know, nothing is ever personal if I can just remember that. You know, but it doesn't. It's so funny because like Jen was talking about the mom face trigger. Right after this happened with her, I went to the grocery store, and there was this guy in the grocery store, just the produce guy. And he made a face that looked like my mother. And it was about the third time walking by him. But I was inside like unconsciously just kind of go, what's his friggin deal? You know, about her? realizing, oh, that's just his face. And it just reminds me, this other face, and it shows you how unconscious our triggers can be. Yeah. Right. And so, back to your question. To not take it personally was actually a conscious effort on my part, like I had to draw on all the self awareness work I've done and it you know, I started working on myself. I was I was truly I did a TED talk on this, I truly was a raging bitch. And my self awareness work started kind of around the year, I say, you know, these things always happen in droves. But I would say when I started doing the artists way in 1999, that was the kind of turning point when I started saying, you know, Lynn, you may have something to do with the state of your life. And it's time to start owning that. And I'll say, I'm still working on not taking things personally, including, you know, when, when Jen and I occasionally cross things up, although we don't cross up nearly as much as we did before. We've had a lot of those conversations now.

Jen  1:16:53

Yeah, well, because it was getting to the point where I was throwing things. And I'll tell you what she did to real accurately, I'll say, Well, I was pretty upset because she was like, yelling things at me. Like I believe in you, Jen, I know you.

Christine  1:17:20

Throw the water bottle

Jen  1:17:20

was because she's like, I believe in you. And in my head, though, because of like my filters and where I was at with myself. I heard that as a condescending insult. Right. And so your page down? Already know. I believe in you. I know you can do this. Right. And like, I think in her mind, she was being a good mom. And in my mind, I'm like you're being condescending bit. But that's what made me so

Lynn  1:17:53

I forgotten that's what it was. But yeah, no wonder I was thinking about what I do.

Jen  1:17:59

Like, I was like I was complimenting you. But I'm sure Lauren can also She's shaking her head and resonance with what I'm saying of how that can be perceived. And when you're in a particular state of mind, and why I'm throwing things may be necessary.

Lynn  1:18:19

So why did you do because I, you know, you did go do some reflection. Because what started happening soon after that was I noticed that when I would ask for things like Jen and I were like, going back and forth with you know, web design and newsletter and she produces my podcasts. And I would ask her for a status on something or ask her for something. And before kind of prior to the bottle, throwing incident, I would get sort of this grudging answer. And then it started becoming more like working with somebody I really wanted to work with, like, Oh, let me go check. Let me find that out. Let me get it to you. Let me you know, it was sort of all of a sudden, we were adult to adult instead of me feeling like I was the unwitting parent to a child. I didn't want to be a child parent, too, if that makes sense. So what did you do?

Jen  1:19:13

Well, I can't really, we don't have enough time to explore everything that so I can only say in a nutshell of like, you know, what did it look like? Because, well, for me, it has a whole lot to do with like, all my insecurities, right? You would ask me a question, can we follow up and I felt like I wasn't doing a good job. I felt like that was a hit against me in terms of, oh, I should have already you like you're paying me so I should have already had that in front of you, or whatever it was right. It was like, some of it was my insecurity. Some of it was like Well, all of it was my insecurities. Let's just put it that way. So what I ended up having to actually do in a nutshell is really gets a another person to like help me explore what those insecurities were. So whenever she would say something to me, I wasn't taking it. I wasn't hearing it through my insecurity lens, right? It was like, Oh, she's just asking me like, What's the status on this? Or, you know, can we change this or because I felt like everything before, that was not good enough, I felt we're not good enough. And so I had to really work, work through that. And that was, that's the conversation where it's like, it took a lot of work to get to that point and some restructuring, right? Like we had to re I had to stop being a W two. Honestly, I had to go to be an independent contractor. And then it was like, now we're same dynamic. Say I'm doing the exact same thing, except it's just laid out a little bit differently. So I'm able to show up like that. But you know what, I would love to go back in here because I know Lauren, had some, some thoughts. Maybe I'm hoping she'd be willing to share that resonance with the I can see where you're coming from in the throwing water bottles when Mom is just trying to tell you how great you are.

Lauren  1:21:25

Yeah, I think that what would come up in me is like, Mom is well, I guess what I was wondering with you is, did you feel like it was abnormal for your mom to do that? Like, because I know that there was a change in your guys's dynamics that did you suddenly feel like hell's this? The sort of cheerleading encouragement over the top, whatever.

Jen  1:21:49

Well, I definitely think that she was always a cheerleader, but she would not like sit there and go, Jen, I really believe in you. Even though she really believed in me, right? She wouldn't say those things necessarily out loud, maybe because she didn't ever feel like she needed to say those things out loud before until she saw me kind of, I don't know. I guess spinning out of control mentally. And this is by the way I had like years, this has had nothing to do with addiction is years clean. I feel like I'm a mature adult. Except I wasn't a mature adult anymore. Right. So yeah, I do actually feel now that you asked that question. I'm like, Yeah, I don't think that that I felt like that was a change. Like, why are you saying these things to me?

Lauren  1:22:36

Yeah, I can identify with the feeling that you had. I don't have a water bottle incident, per se.

Christine  1:22:43

My car?

Lynn  1:22:46

Oh, well, there's a story there

Lauren  1:22:48

was anger in general. Right.

Christine  1:22:54

Now that aren't so Lauren. See, the way I perceive Lauren to take that as Lauren taking? I believe in you is now there's the pressure of an expectation you have of me. Just one more thing that I can fail at that two degree

Lauren  1:23:16

degree? Yeah. Or it would just be overthinking it. Honestly, it'd be like, she wouldn't need to say that if it were true.

Jen  1:23:25

Right, well, okay, so it's a lot. I think, to me, when I really break it down. It's a whole lot like people, which I understand this because now that I'm like an adult, like I can see why we do this, but like telling someone that they have so much potential, right? I think it's almost even though like I know how we mean it, but when you really break that down, it's like So are you saying that I'm not actually like the best version of myself because even if I feel like I'm the like I'm doing the best that I can right now. And saying I have so much potential is kind of telling me that I'm still not good enough. So like people used to tell me that all the time and I took it as like so am I not good enough like because I feel like at this present moment, I'm seriously doing the very best that I can so by you saying that to me tells me like so when I hear like I believe in you. I think at that moment. It felt like you were saying you have so much potential and I still felt not good enough yet that makes you

Lynn  1:24:32

know that that if there's anything that can get people it is that me everyone? I've not think I've ever worked with a single client that didn't somewhere have that not good enough. And if you put that lens filter on everything else comes in a little bit like a funhouse mirror. It's not a clear reflection of who you are. It's like warped because you can take everything The wrong way. Because you don't you don't personally feel good enough or you feel like you're somehow miss thinking about? Yeah. nodding heads.

Lauren  1:25:13

I was gonna say the potential thing I totally understand. Because I remember when people would say that to me. For the longest time, I would feel heavy after I would be like, What do I do with it? Like it? I know it's binary, but it's like, it's like a pressure. And again, it's like, well, I don't have direction or clarity of what I want to do. And now you're saying, I have this potential. And I'm now trying to find it. And yeah, it's the, especially if you feel like you are doing so much. It can play on you like this. This is all I have, right? Now you want more?

Lynn  1:25:44

Like you want more, it's pressure for more, or that, heaven forbid, I'm going to waste something. I hate waste. And it's like, oh, my gosh, you're telling me I can have a wasted life? Or I could, you know, but but the whole thing, it all, it all comes down to the strangest things like pressure, like Jennifer was feeling pressure, just from me asking her for something. Hey, where is that thing you did for me? And it's just a simple request. I don't remember I don't remember because I don't like I have a terrible memory on these things. Where is it? And for her, it would be like, you're not good enough to have?

Jen  1:26:17

Well, right? Well, she would ask me to do the things that I had already done over again, because she forgot that I did it. And that was a while to realize that right? did take me a while to realize that because she's like asking me for things I'm like, but we've already done this. So like was that not? Because I thought when we had the conversation about this, that you were happy with my work. But now you want me to do it again? All because she just forgot that we had already done it because her memory sucks.

Christine  1:26:47

So when you say that, because there was the old dynamic and story there. The brain went right to the story, instead of Let me ask some questions. Right. Let me you know, we did this before. Is there something about that, that you didn't like? Is there some knee jerk, but it just goes straight to the story? And and that's why when both people are open to actually like changing the dynamic? It helps because we can help the other one, get back on track, right. But but a lot of times there's nobody understands what's happening, right? Because one person's going off the rails. Yeah, I know what happened to over here. I'm trying to catch up. And there's a whole breakdown. So sometimes you just kind of ride that wave until you figure it out without engaging in the old patterns.

Jen  1:27:51

Right? Well, now, I asked more questions.

Lynn  1:27:54

She's so much better at it. But you know that the thing about those patterns is they do transcend our relationships with our mothers and daughters. In other words, the very pattern that Jennifer and I had is also carries, you know, into other relationships. Because we see the same triggers. It's just like the guy at the grocery store, having the mom face of my mom, you know, and it was affecting me and he had no intent whatsoever to affect me. He just had a permanent scowl on

Christine  1:28:26

his face. Resting bitchface.

Lynn  1:28:30

It was a male with a resting bitch. Yeah, a bitchy resting face or whatever they call that. That's, that's exactly what happens is these patterns. You know, I can't tell you how many times I'm having to unwind a parent child dynamic in a work situation where people are hearing what the boss is saying. You remember Jennifer said she had to get off being a W two because that makes me not her boss, but more like her. I don't know what I am when I'm a contractor, but it's different. Like she's a client. I'm her client that instead of her boss and it changes the dynamic. But sometimes I tell people treat your boss like a client and it changes everything because they get out of that parent child dynamic that we have sometimes even with our bosses. So you can imagine for Jennifer and I bless her heart. She had three lighters she had me as her actual mother. Then she had me as her boss and her landlord. It was really well. It took a lot for us to get to where we are at the moment.

Christine  1:29:32

Yeah, I I would like to throw something in here because I really wanted to get this out and make sure that I I wanted to be able to give people some tools to be able to use in these situations because you can have the you can have the intellectual understanding and see it play out but then you can get stuck. And this is one of my favorite tools because it It puts you back into being in control of the way you are showing up and breaks the pattern. And it's three different stages to it. The first one is called Mirror. The second one is called empathize, and the third one is validated. And how this looks, I used to use this a lot in in the group, so they would do at the treatment center for addiction. So because I would say, okay, so you're here for 30 days, and you're gonna go through this entire process of self exploration and therapy and understanding and you're gonna feel great, you're not going to be using anymore, you're going to get healthy. And then you're going to go back home. And when you go home, what you don't fully understand is that those people, the last time they saw you, they were pouring you into a cab on the way to the airport on the way to treatment. So they didn't go along the lot, this whole treatment process with you. So, when you go home, you're so excited. And you might be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be sober and clean and live this new life and you could be met with some very cynical,

Lauren  1:31:21

resting bitchface. Resting bitchface

Jen  1:31:24

resting bitchface it's just a bitch face. Let's be clear.

Christine  1:31:30

And so and people could say things like to you like, yes, well, we heard all that before. Okay, that could be a real trigger moment. Right? Because it could go right into the old story of, you know, resentments and everything here, I did 30 I did this huge thing in my life, and these people don't even support me, let me get, I'm only gonna get validated for that. And then now you've got that feeling of or inside of you. You've got a distance between the person that's in your life. Maybe it's a sister, mother, whatever. But if you do something like a mere emphasize and validate what that looks like, and say, Okay, so. So what you hear is, yeah, I believe it when I see it. We've been here before to you mirror that person. So let me see if I understand what you're saying is, is that I have before said that I was going to get sober and be sober and be healthy. And that didn't happen. Yeah, that's right. It didn't happen. And you lied all the time. Okay. So you're saying that I lied. And that is that was that really was hard for you? Is that what you're saying? That I lied, and I said that I was going to be sober and I wasn't? Yes. Okay. I can then I can understand you empathize. I can understand why you would feel this way. Right, I can understand it. I did do those things. That did happen. And now you validate. If I were you, I would probably feel the same way. And then you have to take yourself out of it. In other words, you're not doing this as some kind of parlor trick to like gain control of the conversation or you know, some chest move. This is this is so that you can not you can walk away and not have picked up that judgment about Yeah, well, we heard this before but because if you own it. No, I used to say anybody seen eight mile? Anybody seen that movie with with Eminem? Oh, yeah. Right? Brilliant scene where he's going to have like a rap off. Right? And he's the only white guy there. And he's, he's terrified. And what happens is like, the guy is going against is just brutal. He's gonna get shredded. So what he does is, he goes out there and he owned every single thing that guy could have ever said about them. He said that about himself. First he owned it all made it his so that there was no place that the other guy could come at them. Because he had no vulnerability because he owns it all. It's brilliant. You think that it means that you're agreeing about your you're a bad person, it doesn't, you're just acknowledging that someone else could have a different experience around what's happening. And by letting them know that you see and hear and understand that that can also go really far in taking that tension away. Because when we get into arguments, everyone's waiting to just throw their piece back. There's a big wall between you and we're lobbing balls over it, right? Because no one's listening, because we're just waiting to like, give our side. But this makes us stop to, I'm not doing that I'm not going to argue or give evidence or anything, I just want to stop for a minute. And I want to really hear what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. And without having to change it. And to just acknowledge, like, yeah, I guess, you know, if I was you, I'd probably feel the same way. And it takes away so much of the energy behind it.

Lynn  1:36:13

That's a brilliant tool. Yeah. Great. I love that. I love that.

Jen  1:36:19

That was a that was a great tool. Lauren, what's your go to tool? But new on this? Sorry. I'm allowing you the opportunity to immediately use your tool.

Lauren  1:36:36

Well, actually, it's funny when you you're saying about like, how your mom would say something to you, or email you or whatever, and how you would interpret it. Like, my big thing that I'm trying to really incorporate is the like, recognizing, like, what's the facts? What are the facts here? Right? Oh, an email was sent saying, Did you do this thing? And how am I saying it in my head when I'm reading it? Did you do this thing? And that's usually like, oh, well learn, you're kind of adding you're adding an inflection there that isn't there. Right? It's simply did you do that? It's just a question. And if someone else asked you this, would you feel the same way? So you know, because we're sometimes applying like, oh, well, this person thinks this way. We're mind reading. Right? So it's kind of like catching myself when I go into those cognitive distortions as they call it, right? Like, remind reading, when I'm catastrophizing like, how many of us when we hear like, oh, the boss wants to see you. And you're like, I'm in trouble. You have no idea what's gonna be said, but you just immediately go into I'm in trouble. I don't think I've done anything wrong. But they probably found something that I've done wrong. Though, yeah, trying to catch myself when I do that, those. So the cognitive distortions list is like, huge for me. Another thing that I do is, especially because we were talking about, like the codependent relationship mom, and I have something that I have learned to catch myself in pretty much daily is when I have a problem. And I want to call Mom, it's like a knee jerk reaction to be like, let's go on and then right and I, and then we get stuck in this pattern again, and again, it's exhausting. And then we're on the phone for hours wasting time. And then afterward, I don't like, sure there's a little relief, but not really, it doesn't last. So I feel like holding back from calling mom being mindful of that, and actually going and sitting with myself or journaling or finding my own coping strategies is has been really, really helpful. And also recognizing when I'm calling mom about something negative, or to complain, versus Am I calling mom and anytime about something positive, something helpful. I want that to be more so than the complaining and the negativity. So what's my ratio is what I'm constantly Oh, that's good. That's awesome. Because Mom, I used as a dumping ground for a lot of

Lynn  1:39:08

I think moms are. I mean, I thought that that was besides the eyes in the back of our head and the third hand to carry all the dishes back to the kitchen. I thought that was one of our jobs.

Christine  1:39:19

Right hits you. I was I was I was there for until I was like, beat into submission. But, you know, it just became so heavy to constantly be getting that and that it didn't feel like it was helping. It was like just stirring the pot, you know? Right.

Lauren  1:39:39

Yeah. You did a good thing to like, I would start to recognize when my mom was sort of like check out a little or she'd be like that you wouldn't give me much and I was like, Okay, this is like okay, this is boring. I gotta get up fun. Give me anything.

Jen  1:39:55

That's with you. Thank you.

Lynn  1:39:58

So I no more gasoline on it. Far.

Lauren  1:40:00

Yep, exactly. Or she would? Or she would even there was a period of time. And Mom, you're probably not, you're going to be reminded, and you're probably going to start doing it again. Where he would kind of cut me off where she would be like, I gotta go. I have to attend to this thing over here.

Lynn  1:40:20

New empty the dishwasher. Yeah, I

Lauren  1:40:22

knew it was an excuse. I'm like, Mom, you take your phone everywhere with you to you know, we've had conversations while you're doing laundry while you're, you know, you're feeding the chickens like, so I know that that's BS, but on a certain level, I also know that that is what I need. So I do accept it. I'm like, Ah, we've reached that point. Mommy's not valid me.

Lynn  1:40:45

Does are helpful. That was very good. That was a very good tool. So those awarenesses Jan, what are your What are your what's one of your go to Tools, and then I'll share one.

Jen  1:40:54

Um, well, this is mostly for like, when my when I'm in like, it, the immediate reaction if I get, cuz this is where I struggle the most is when I'm confronted with something, and I don't know how to respond and my brain kind of flatlines for a minute. And then, you know, like, that's, that's my biggest struggle. I'm like, I don't know what to do here. And my go to for that particular thing that sometimes I remember it. And sometimes I don't, sometimes I just flatline and like, you know, but when I remember it, it's good. As I just asked a quick, can you tell me more about that? Very, very easy to remember. I don't have to do anything else. Can you tell me more about that? Not because this is what I tell the people want to tell people how to use this tool, not because I actually care what they have to say, I just need my brain back in that moment. And I know it's gonna take them a minute to tell me more about what they mean. Because, you know, so I'm like, Okay, this is gonna give me at least five to 10 minutes. Either myself, of can you tell me? Can you tell me more about that, but I need about five to 10 minutes to get my brain back. Because my immediate reaction is usually not good. It looks a lot like throwing water bottles.

Lauren  1:42:30

Like we I relate to you on that. It's like either, we react and it's really not good. And it's like, oh, no, I want to take that back. Or it's just I don't have like I because I'm overthinking. And I know that I don't react well, in those situations. Now. I have nothing. Yeah. line,

Lynn  1:42:48

that line. You know my mind harder and was wanting to be able to get to a place of curiosity when something's coming at me that I'm not expecting like, Jen, why did you throw the water bottle and be curious as opposed to pissed. But to get there, I've learned I have to assume positive intent. And, you know, it's no secret because I wrote the elegant pivot the book about that, but to, to, to see that it's not personal. And that there's a reason somebody's doing something, and it's not necessarily about me, is really helpful to get to pure curiosity for me. And it applies almost everywhere I go, but but it's really, really hard to do. But you know, most people really don't get up in the morning, trying to screw up your day. Like Jan, I knew when we were going through our stuff that you weren't getting up in the morning, trying to make life hard on us, you know, or make our life hard on me or make my my lack of good memory be a problem. So if I could, you know, after the first hit, there's always that first thought, which is usually not good. My second thought I tried to have be assuming positive intent, just so I can be curious and say, Well, what is going on? If I don't like that? What what's going what's behind this? And, you know, then I feel like I can find my way out a little bit. From there. Yeah. So one of the things we wanted to do towards the end of this is I know we have a few people on live, if you want to add any questions to the chat, we may open it up to do a little bit of q&a. Or if you have anything that struck you that you want to know more about anymore, or more.

Jen  1:44:33

Raise your hand and I can unmute you. If you

Lynn  1:44:36

oh yeah, Jen, you can? You could do it that way. Yeah. Jen is Jen is the Zoom master here. She knows how to make that work.

Jen  1:44:42

Right. So you go to the chat or raise the hand if you have any questions or comments or anything you want to add to the conversation. Yeah.

Lynn  1:44:50

One of the one of the themes that I've noticed from this conversation is sort of the helpful fame. I We'll say is it is possible to break patterns?

Lauren  1:45:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you're a participant in that. I was just gonna say it comes from both sides.

Christine  1:45:14

Yes. Well, I would also say, I would just also say that you can only control your side. So even if the other person is not willing, you can start doing it yourself.

Jen  1:45:27

Yeah. And, you know, I think I think even for me, like, I don't think it was one sided, I think, even during the thing with my mom, and I few years back, I think I did a lot of the heavy lifting about say, she didn't do her work, but I think a lot of the heavy lifting was also on me, as well. So, you know, a lot changed, for me doing the heavy lifting, because she was able to have some more to go with that. From there, right. Now she's able to have, you know, now we're able to have real conversations and hard conversations because I can be present. And then she can be present. Right? So but it does, yeah, it can. It can be a lot to take on on from both sides. And sometimes we don't always get to people, which is why I'm really grateful that we have, you know, the four of us here, where it's like, you know, wow, this is a little, I guess unique, because it's, we have all of us participating and the growth of our relationships is amazing. What makes this amazing.

Christine  1:46:44

I also say that there's so much more that we certainly didn't talk about, Oh, yeah. And I made so many mistakes. But I was very shut down. And in fight flight, I think most of my mothering years, like, so. It was just go go go. And work three jobs, whatever it whatever had to be done, had to get done. And I think that the tunnel vision, the vision does get smaller and smaller and smaller of what I knew I had to do and what I could do. And I think maybe there was a bottle lying to myself, like I was, you know, it was delusional about how great I was knocking it out of the park. And as you get older, you know, you start to see that that's not necessarily what was happening, you know, like that. And, and that can be painful. And the guilt piece. I mean, there, there is a truckload of things that we could talk about. That happened that would lend itself to trauma bonding between Lauren and my son and I were, I do know that I used to say to them when they were kids, because and this is where there's no right or wrong and parenting, right. Like, it's just how it can be. It can be processed in the child's mind. You don't you can't know that ahead of time. I would say, as long as we're together. We're good, right? Everything's good as long as we're together. And when I didn't realize that, that that made them. I think they really liked that as kids. But then as adults, it reinforced the enmeshment because now we're only okay if we're together. So going away or doing something that makes the most move apart and be more grown up feels like that's where the scary stuff is. So you never know how something is going to unravel later. And it's really important to know this is a lifetime of unpacking and being present and and allowing it's not something that happens. Oh, I did that last year. It was not how this works.

Jen  1:49:21

Yeah, we have someone that has raised their hand. I'm going to help I say this right. And please forgive me if I don't bridgid that. Yeah. I think I asked to

Lynn  1:49:32

let she's unmuted. There you go. You got

1:49:35

1. Um, well, first, thank you guys for being here and having this conversations fantastic. And I I was taking notes through the whole thing and thinking about and I got into a little bit like oh, yeah, I did that. I did that. And some of it

1:49:51

was

1:49:55

I did what was would have been considered like the good thing, but um, realizing it came from a place that didn't make it the good thing. So I was going back to like when you saw your mom as human, and I was thinking for like with my daughter, I think I did a lot of like pre emptive striking, like, I suck at this, I'm not good at this. And then that did not allow her to say you suck at this, you're not good at this, because it was like, I already took that out of the picture for her. Like, it wasn't an option for her to say, because I already did it. And I have a clear memory. We built a house. And when you build a house from scratch, buying the land, you end up with like all of these. You know, you have the How to that now everything's online. But at the time, I had this giant drawer in my kitchen that had like how to do the microwave, how to do the stove, how to do the sprinkler system. And one time when my daughter was 12 to 14 and just pushing me pushing me pushing me like, all the buttons, were getting niggled. I had a meltdown. And I went to that drawer, and I just started just standing there in the kitchen. I started pulling these flyers out, like the microwave, the this I'm screaming, pulling these things out. There's no freaking brochure for you. I am doing and no. brochure. I don't know what to do with you. I was overwhelmed. And in the moment, like looking back, it's like, Oh, how beautiful. You admitted all of your crap. But now I'm realizing like, Well, yeah, but that was so preemptive, like I never gave her the opportunity to go, you freaking suck. So huge realisation. And I like use bumps right now because that that moment just sticks out in my mind so much on what she looked like on the other side of the kitchen counter and what it felt like to be like throwing papers. Like, I know how to install a doorknob, like throwing just things. And no one gave me for sure. I just brought you home and there your

Lynn  1:52:21

mother's across America or identifying with you.

Christine  1:52:27

Yeah, yeah. So

1:52:30

it's amazing. How, you know, in one way you guys were talking about how it's, you know, so nice to let them know that they you know that you make mistakes, and yet the way and so I was always going oh, good girl like you, you. You told her you didn't always have the answers. But now I'm really realizing always the yin and yang of all of those things and where they come from. So thank you so much for that's

Lynn  1:52:58

actually a really good awareness.

Christine  1:53:00

That's Yes. really insightful. That's what I was just as it shows that intention is really important in everything right? What and questioning why you're doing it, because it can change the dynamic of taking, like you said the good thing, but the intention is so that I don't have to hear you tell me that your experience of it being bad. So I'm just gonna say it's bad. I did it. It's bad. So now you don't have that opening? or feeling like you do.

1:53:34

Yeah, yeah. And my mom was an alcoholic, but she was not a closet alcoholic. She told everyone she was an alcoholic, and no one ever came to save me. It's it literally the same dynamic, right? Like, I couldn't call her out on all the drugs. It was like, no, she just threw it out there. There was no secrecy at all. And so here I was trying so hard to not do that same thing. It didn't have an alcohol or drug problem. There were other other things but and then looking back on it going, Oh, same thing. You know, same thing.

Christine  1:54:14

Yeah, yes. Last was very less, much less not as bad. You know, much more doable.

1:54:20

Right. Right. Same damage could be the same damage, but yes, complete completely different. So it's, um, yeah, yeah. been fascinating. Thank you, guys.

Christine  1:54:31

Thank you. Thank you.

Lynn  1:54:33

This is the journey, isn't it? I mean, that's what we're all on is a journey. Whether it's the mother daughter or just in all of our relationships, but the mother daughter relationship, I think does really shape our lives. And as we come up on our promise, closing time, what I thought would be nice for us to do is just have each of us briefly speak about how people can find out more or find each of us in our respective worlds and also how they can just find out more about what we do. So let me start Lauren, let me start with you.

Lauren  1:55:15

You can find me at LGM method.com. Also tick tock Instagram. Facebook is LGI method as well.

Lynn  1:55:24

LG M. S. Martin, your last

Lauren  1:55:28

name? Lauren Grace Martinson method.

Lynn  1:55:31

There you go. LGM that beautiful and you're on tick tock. Yes. What do you do on tick tock?

Lauren  1:55:37

Um, so I actually have been doing videos, sharing tools with people from various books, various personal development books, certain exercises that we all seem to skip usually in those books. Yeah, I'll get to that later. Let me just read this book. Well, I actually have pulled out some of the my favorite ones and just basically talk about it on those videos.

Lynn  1:56:02

Oh, that's amazing. I don't I'm not tick tock. So I need you to post them somewhere else.

Lauren  1:56:10

Share them on Instagram. So.

Lynn  1:56:12

Okay. I think I may be following you there then. Okay, good. Good. Good. All right. Jan, how about you?

Jen  1:56:21

You can just go to my website, Maneely consulting.com? m a n e l y consulting.com? Or just shoot me an email? Jennifer Maneely consulting.com.

Lynn  1:56:32

Yeah. And describe a little bit about what it is you do, especially with parents?

Jen  1:56:36

Yes. So I work with families that have loved ones with substance abuse. So I talked to a lot of the parents just trying to help them navigate that whole confusing world where people can get really lost. It's, it's hard. So sometimes you just need a guide through the darkness. And that's kind of what I do. Yeah.

Lynn  1:57:00

Well, Christine, tell us about what you do and how to find you.

Christine  1:57:07

I would, I would say, I always ended up saying things like, I'll say one thing and then I have to feel like I feel like I have to add a but on the other side be like I say when I talked about the mere empathize, validate, I've seen people actually take that as a weapon and use it because their intention was to take control of conversations instead of have clearing. So I would say when you're talking about being vulnerable, and allowing a child or a parent to have their perception of things that can also be weaponized depending on the person because if you're dealing in a pathological relationship with someone who is narcissistic, or borderline or Oppositional Defiant Disorder, any of those things, there's always a power struggle happening there and control of the narrative. So you wouldn't handle those necessarily in the same way. So I just feel like I wanted to,

Lynn  1:58:12

I'm glad you had that added that clarity. Put that

Christine  1:58:15

in there. I, I work for a long time in with people helping them get sober and then working as a sober coach. There's a huge amount of crossover with pathological relationships and addiction because pathological relationships with all the gaslighting, love bombing, abuse, lying, everything, people get stuck, it literally creates a loop in their brain that doesn't allow them to be able to leave. And addiction, like turning to drugs or alcohol is a way to leave without leaving. And it's taking you out. Right. And I saw those correlations and it seems that you're you always say like, you get your the perfect people to work with you like if you put out the right energy, and I tend to work with people who have had those relationships, and are trying to get back to themselves and because you lose yourself and so finding a way back to yourself and knowing even who you are now, that because you're living in someone else's brain and nervous system just to be safe the whole time. So, I work as a transformational mentor and I use hypnotherapy and Equine Assisted coaching as other tools to be able to help people you know, get the life that they want to live and not and heal from this and themselves.

Lynn  1:59:50

That's the I love I love the term transformational mentor. It's it's really it's really potent when you start talking about true transform nation? What's your web? So? Oh, yeah, give us

Christine  2:00:04

on the path coaching dotnet

Lynn  2:00:07

on the path coaching dotnet, we'll have all of this for those of you who are listening in the show notes as well. And for me, the best way to find me is that my website Len carnes.com. And there you can subscribe to the coaching digest, which is, I put it out weekly, and it really is everything I coach on all of my tools, blogs, everything is there for free. And then once in a while somebody will actually want me to do a true executive coaching with them. And that's what I do when I work with someone one on one is is executive coaching typically more entrepreneurs than ever now but also with with senior executives in the corporate world. So finding me at Lynn karns.com You can find me there. And of course, you may have found that through this podcast if you're listening, this will go out on both the creative spirits unleashed podcast and Jen money lace unbreakable boundaries podcast. I was

Christine  2:01:03

one thing if anybody out there is has questions or need support around the pathological relationships, whether that was a parent, or a love relationship. I've been doing this thing called First Fridays. It's a Friday. Yes, it's awesome. A free group call, the first Friday of every month will be next Friday. So if you go to my website, you can sign up for that for free. And that's already started being great conversations on there.

Lynn  2:01:34

Great. I did the last one. And I'm going to just endorse it right now. It was worth being there. So sign up for that if you can. It's worth it's really great. So with that I'm going to we promised to be done at three o'clock and we are at three o'clock. How about that? So thank you all so much for joining and for having this conversation. And I look forward to future conversations because we're all friends and we will be we will be back plotting new ideas after this one. So thank you everybody, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Is that will I