It can be a really confusing time when your loved one gets out of rehab. It can be confusing for you as well as them. It's emotional, it's a little chaotic and not at all what you would expect it to look like. In this next podcast, I share a little bit about what you can expect. This is generalization, so if you have questions about your own loved one, please reach out to me.
Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries Podcast with your hosts, myself, Jennifer Maneely. In today's episode, I wanted to get into a really common issue slash questions that families have on how to support their loved one, when they exit rehab. So someone goes into rehab, and they get out. And now what, and this is a very challenging time period for both the families and for the people that have the substance abuse issues. Because a lot of times, what I see is, the red flags that families think are a part of what they're seeing is actually a really, really normal part of the process, when it comes to early recovery, and the things that they want to see are actually the red flags. And so this makes it really challenging, both for the loved one and for the family. So I kind of really wanted to get into, what can you expect, now, there's going to be some things that I'm going to say that are just a part of the process that you may not agree with, in terms of that's not how it should be, quote, unquote, it's not how it should be. But in most cases, and keep in mind, this is a very general conversation that we're having. So it may not apply to your loved one, but more than likely it does, because this is what is experienced in that early recovery in that getting out of rehab, that pretty much everyone goes through, if they are really doing all the right things. So many times there's this idea that especially the parents have, they're like, Okay, when you go into rehab, you're gonna get a chance to break free of the drug that you're on and kind of just be able to move on with your life when you get out because you will have been freed from the drug obsession, and now you can just pick up right where you left off, or just move on. And a lot of times, what happens is the loved one will get out of rehab, and there's a lot of pressure for that loved one to just move on with their lives. Okay, you're normal again, you're gonna just move on. This comes with the idea that substances are the root of the problem. And here's the challenge is substances were merely a symptom of a much deeper problem. The problems are very internal. So the things that they're telling them, all of this started much before they actually turned to drugs. So it's gonna be very much kind of the same thing. When they get out of rehab, all of their issues that made them turn to drugs are now right to the surface. And now that they don't have the drugs, and there's two parts of this, they don't have the drugs to cope. So now they have to figure out how to live their life. The drugs that they are on or were on actually did create a lot of chemical imbalances, which I want to say that the chemical imbalances it happens, because they are wrecking wreaking havoc with the chemistry of their brain, and it will balance out in the beginning. It's a very emotional time period, both from just figuring out how to live life and the actual chemical imbalances that have happened. So this is a very raw time, so when they get out of rehab, that's kind of what you're seeing. Is them almost reverting into more of that childlike state. So it's, if they're acting like a 10 year old, that's really actually normal. And you're looking at it going, Wait, this is not at all what I was expecting, I feel like when you got out of rehab, you should just be able to start adulting. Again. Well, keep in mind that most of the time people have started drugs at a very young age in their development stopped at that point, you say, in your brain, oh, they should be adulting again. And yet, when you really think about it, I want you to ask yourself this one important question. When Have they ever truly adult ID. Really, they have always had a very difficult time, not that they haven't been able to accomplish things. So I want to state that very clearly. It's not that they haven't been able to accomplish things, sometimes we make it through college, we make it through, we start our own businesses, even why we're all in this. And yet, there's still a maturity issue that has been happening for a very long time. And so this is one of the things that parents often think of, as, oh, this is red flags, when really, that emotional immaturity is a perfectly normal part of the process. Now, I'm not saying that it's not annoying. I'm not saying that it's not frustrating talking to a 3035 year old, 40, year old, whatever. And it's like you're talking to a 10 year old. Look, if there was a way to change that, or fix that, or make them act like an adult, trust me, they would do it. But this is the way that it is not the way that you think it should be. And so within that, it's almost like, I'll never recommend saying you should drop to the their develop developmental stage. But there is an understanding, in some compassion that they may not be able to handle a whole lot of things that being said, most of the time, depending on the level of substance abuse. They're really just trying to figure out life in general. They're like, how do I do these things? What is going on with me, the most simplest tasks that we have learned to live in is really hard tasks for them. So going out and getting a job, which I do recommend, they go out, and they start learning how to adult so they start learning how to pay the bills, they start learning how, you know, to get the job and be financially secure. But it's the understanding of how challenging all of those can be in those in that time period. And it's like holding space for them to really explore what is coming up without judging it without necessarily telling them what to do, but really coming about it in a encouraging way. So maybe the first job interview, and this is just an example. But maybe the first job interview that they did it. It was just not good. Maybe they didn't show up. Maybe the interview itself went really not great. And maybe they come home either very upset, or they tell you like oh yeah, I didn't go or whatever. And a lot of times what the families want to do is put a whole lot of pressure on them. And I understand why it's not, you know, this is what we this is perfectly normal. And then it creates a shutdown, because they are ready and whether they exhibit it to you and this is something I want, you know, for us to understand. They on the outside, they may be exhibiting a lot of nonchalant LIS like they don't care, nothing really matters. They're still in that like, oh f this and this is stupid and all that. Really what's going on internally is a whole lot of shame, a whole lot of lack and faith in themselves. That they can do it. So what they show you is the idea They don't care. And really what's going on is the belief that they are not capable. And so when we communicate with people, when we communicate with our loved ones, it's how can I encouraged them? How can I show them that? I have faith that they will do it next time. So say the interview does doesn't go very well. It's like, hey, you know what, it's okay. It's important. I mean, you can either say this or not just depends on what you want to do. But it's like, maybe next time, we can sit down and really go through, how are you going to show up in the next interview. And if that doesn't go, well, we'll just try it again. It's okay. This is also though, because there's no way they have the emotional maturity, at this point in time, to really take a step back and look at family dynamics, it's very, very complicated. They're in a very rural place, and they don't have the maturity level, at this time to really dive into showing up as an adult with their parents, it, it just is, they're always going to feel like a teenager, they're going to act like a teenager, in the beginning stages of this. This is why in a lot of cases, you know, I remind people, it's really difficult for the loved one, and for the parent, to actually show up as like an adult, if your loved one is living in your house, their ability to show up as an adult in this world, is 10 times more difficult than if they were out on their own. Now, when there, there are 1000 options out there. For people that get out of rehab, there's transitional houses, there's all sorts of different options that they can do. The challenge becomes is that they don't want to do it. They do not want to go into a transitional house, they don't want to do they don't they want the easy answer? And the easy answer is oftentimes coming home to their parents houses, if that's an option. The challenge with this is it does not serve either you as the parent, or them as the loved one my saying don't do it, I'm just saying that it makes it really difficult for you to show up. Like you want to show up in this world, and treat them like an adult. Because it's like, we're just going to fall right into our dynamics. So my recommendation is, is whether they like it or not, at least they have some skin in the game, when they're out on their own. And they're having to figure out how to do life. They have people around them, that can help them and support them in doing life as we are meant to do life. And this is where it's like the red flag for me. This is and this is a generalization. So please hear me when I say this is a generalization. The but the red flag for me is when someone gets out of rehab, and they just think that they just have this thing. They think that they're going to move on with their own lives. They think that they can do it on their own. They don't need any support. They got what they needed from the rehab, and now they're gonna just go out in and, and live life. And that's as a as a parent, really, that's what we want because like who really wants to have like, a quote unquote, wait, here's the deal. We, it I say we but really, you know, the parents that I have worked with a lot of times it's like they just want their kid to be going through a phase. They just want them to be going through a phase because if they're just going through a phase that means it's something that they can just get over. And I'm here to tell you that if they're going in and out of rehab, this is not just a face. This is something to be more In full of this is something to really take very seriously that, you know, they may not be able to live just as a normal adult in this world, maybe they do, maybe they don't. But it's a time when it's like, maybe it's not just a phase, and we have to treat it not as just a phase. But this is a big red flag for me is when people just think that they can go and do it on their own. And the reason it's a red flag, and it's not listen, they believe themselves, that's the right answer for them. They think that that is what they can do. So it's not like they're doing anything wrong. They're just having a desire to want to get past all of this, all of this being, you know, their substances, because they don't want to live like that either. And so they most certainly don't want to go into the community where that's what all of the it's really about. And I totally understand it. Here's the other side of it, though. If they knew how to live life, successfully, without the use of drugs, they wouldn't have needed to go into rehab in the first place. If they knew how to show up as an adult, if they knew how to pay their bills, if they knew how, you know, to go grocery shopping, if they knew how to keep a job, if they knew how to do all of these things without drugs, they would have done it already. So the community, the recovery community, is really about supporting them. In learning what we have to learn to get through every day without using drugs. A lot of times they hate the community. And I can totally understand from their viewpoint as to why it's because they go into rehab. And you have either the staff that runs around and tells them what to do and gives them a whole bunch of rules. And as we know that they don't love that stuff. They don't love being told what to do. They've been doing whatever they wanted to do, no matter what level of destruction that they have in their lives, they've been doing whatever they want to do, for as long as they can remember with with zero regard for anyone. So they get into a place where they have staff, which is just telling them what to do. And that's really annoying to them. And they don't like it. And they're like rules. You can't tell me when to go to bed. I'm a grown adult, you can't tell me to make my my bed. You can't. You can't tell me to do chores, you can't. What do you do like this is they don't want to do it. Right? So immediately their perception of the staff is weak. We are not big fans of authority. Right now. You have the staff and then you have the people that you are in rehab with. And they're all in the same freakin mindset. They're all in a very raw place. Emotions are high, there's a really good chance they're just not getting along with people. Because not only do they not know how to get along with other people, but the other people don't know how to get along with other people as well. Because we're all they're all it's like, you know, it's just a bunch of people in the in the place. And I'm not saying it's not the right, I think rehab is a great place to be when you need to get off drugs, um, but their perceptions of getting out of that place. And they'll go to meetings, maybe some of them, some of the rehabs will take them to, you know, 12 step meetings or whatever. And their perception is in there. Is it just a bunch of people that used to do drugs sitting around and complaining about their lives, which is not entirely true. By the way? That's their perception of what is true. Why? Because they are so busy trying to not have to live that type of life that they're gonna pinpoint on something that they hear that they don't like. And now they're gonna compare themselves and be like, Why do I want to hang out with these people? And it's all because we don't know how to be around other people are when we come in and we're happy to be around people that we don't particularly like, or no, it's like, look, we've been a lot of us. We get into You know, this type of world, it is very confusing. Because it's like when I'm in a group of people, I've learned not to trust anyone. I've learned that people can be dangerous, the best friends that you have in the substance abuse community, when you are doing substances. That world, you're all stealing from each other, you're all lying from each other you're doing, you know, dangerous things with each other, you will stab each other in the back and then turn around and be best friends the next day. Knowing that you just stab each other in the back. So you come in with that mindset in a group of people that you kind of do resonate with, because you know, that they're kind of sharing your story. But immediately, people just don't trust each other. In the very beginning. Trust is a learned skill. It's, it's, it's learned on how to handle when something happens with other people, because I'm not saying that recovery, people are perfect, we all come in with the same kind of mentality. And here's the other challenge is in recovery, we have a tendency to want to gravitate towards people that are in the same place that we are, because we resonate with each other. But it's usually here's the secret. It's usually like they're in the same mindset. So they're just as toxic. And we resonate with just the toxic people. And then we're like, recovery, people suck. It's because they don't know how to find the right people to go hang out with, which is not the people they're generally going to gravitate to. Because it's usually the Healthy People. And we come in with very unhealthy mindset. It's not a judgment, it just is, it's what we've been trained in that world of, of how to be it's just unhealthy. And we have to learn how to have a healthy mindset, which means we have to hang out with people that are healthy. People that have a problem with recovery are people that have a problem with people in recovery, because they don't know how to deal with people in general. You know, they don't know how to deal with if someone betrayed them or got hurt. They're like, oh, all recovery people are like this. No, they're not. No, they're not. You know, I pay attention to who I allow in my own life. Because I know I've learned this time and time again, of you know, the minute that someone else's problem, this is where it becomes about boundaries, right? The minute that someone else creates problems in my life, that are not my problems, but they make it my problems, then it becomes my problem to solve. And usually, if I have to solve someone else's problem, that person isn't going to be no longer allowed into my life. And it doesn't mean when I say that, that doesn't mean I turned my back on my friends, it just means that maybe that particular person if they continue to create problems in my life, I may not want to be with that person. Now I am totally, totally there for people. So if someone else is having a problem, I'm not turning my back. It's just when they start invading my in my life, when their decisions impact me in a negative way. I am going to reevaluate my closeness with that person. And here's the thing is, in so many ways, your loved one. And I'm not saying turn your back, I'm saying look at the boundaries that are being set. In if their decisions are impacting you in a negative way, what are some solutions that you can come up with some boundaries that make sense so that their decisions aren't impacting you? Because that's not fair. And it shouldn't be that way. And it doesn't mean that sometimes it doesn't happen. It just means that Oh, with this person, I may have to reevaluate my what I allow in my life in terms of how do we do things. So I may not be as connected with that person anymore. So we may not go out and do as many things. I just set my life up in such a way that they can't necessarily like Like, invade my life that much, I'm like, No, I'm not going to give you the option anymore to make decisions that negatively impact my life. So however I need to do that. So this is all in, you know, the very beginning, it's very complicated. Because there's a lot of things that are going on that you're not going to be aware of, for instance, this is another thing I want to talk about is, and I don't think we talked about this enough. But this is a red flag for for a lot of families. When I hear it, I'm like, that's really normal, nothing to be worried about. And we should be able to talk about it. But it scares the shit out of parents most of the time. And then they put unnecessary pressure, or they get upset over something that's really normal. And now their loved one can't even talk about it with the people that they have in their life. Because here's the truth. When someone gets out of rehab, generally speaking, especially if it's their first time, they have nowhere else to turn to for support yet, outside of their family members. So in their family members often just don't really know how to handle some of the really normal parts of the thing. So for instance, let's talk about using dreams. Using dreams are a special kind of dream. Using dreams are very jarring for people to experience. Most of the time they using dreams not always are there, they're kind of going down the Recovery Road, in their dream they use and now they feel so ashamed they use they feel so guilty that they have to tell people, they have to start over yet again. Sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes it's just they're using and they're happy about it in their dream. And then they wake up. And they're like, Oh, thank God, it's just a dream. But let me tell you, especially in the beginning, not only does it happen so frequently. But it's such a jarring thing, it shakes people for the day, sometimes even longer than that, because they all have that shame and guilt, even though it wasn't something that they actually did. They feel that shame and guilt. And they feel like maybe they did something wrong, even though it was just a dream. They feel like maybe they did something wrong, even though they haven't done anything wrong. It's just their brains way of processing both their experience of you know, the chemical imbalances that are going on, it doesn't really mean anything outside of it's just a brains way of trying to process the significant change that the brain is experiencing in that moment. And so, the challenge is, is when they have been shaken up by a dream, and they start talking to the family members about set dream, a lot of times the parents hear it. And they think that that's a red flag. Oh, you're thinking about using? Well, let me tell you a little secret, we think about using a lot. And it doesn't really matter how long clean that that person gets. We still think about using a lot and in the very beginning. It's like it, it's constant. You can't stop that. And for parents, they often will put pressure and say, Oh my God, you're thinking about going back out and using I can't do all of this over again. No, no. And then there's a whole lot of conversations around that. And then now again, the loved one feels a little shut down and loved one feels a little like they can't talk like an and the loved one also feels like maybe they're doing something wrong. Because they just had their parents telling them that that their dream was wrong, their dreams. They like they have any control over it should just be you know, they shouldn't be thinking like that. And they and the truth is they can't help it and I'm going to tell you, they're going to wake up and they're going to think about using not just around the using dreams just on everyday life, they are going to think about using they're gonna want to use and that's just really normal. And it goes away after some time. But you know what, I tell you what I have over 15 years clean and on a really hot day, or if I'm really stressed out or any number of things just because I'm like it would be really nice to have a couple of beers years. And I know for me that that's not an option, but I think about it. And there are times where I think about even more things. I don't sit around and romance it, I don't sit around and create the desire, like, right around when I start feeling uncomfortable in my body, like physically, that's when it's like I have learned, and I've had to learn how to do this, I will learn how to not continue down the road of those thoughts, because that's dangerous, when we sit there, and we just start thinking about using and going down that path. But we don't really have much control over our first thoughts. And sometimes we don't even have much control over our second thoughts. But when I start getting really uncomfortable feelings in me, that's when it's like, okay, you really have to think about something else, because you're gonna make yourself miserable. So here's the thing is they're gonna think about all of these things. And this is, this is why I think it's just really important that families also get help to learn how to deal with what is coming up for them. So my focus for the families is having, like, I work a lot with parents, because I think it's really important. And it's like, okay, this is happening in your life, period. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The question for you is, is, who do you want to be through this? How do you want to handle it? Do you want to have a relationship with your loved one, if you want to have a relationship with your loved one, and you want to support them, and you want to help them and you want them to just be the person that you feel like, you know, they can be, then there's some work to be done? So a lot of times I think parents have this idea is like, oh, no, I'm not the one with the problem. They're the ones with the problem. They're the ones that need help. And I agree, they need help. It doesn't mean they're the that they are the only ones with a problem. They don't have the same problems that you may be experiencing. Have you sat back and thought about like, Okay, how many questions do you have? That maybe you don't even know where to go to? To get answers? And I'm going to tell you, it's really, really confusing, and brings you into more of a confusion. When you go sit down and try to go to Facebook, or try to Google answers to your problems, or try to get advice. Oh, man, I don't know if you've ever made that mistake. But go into a Facebook group and asking for advice on, you know, a very short, like, you can't possibly give people enough information to actually for you to give advice for them to give advice to you. But man, it's like, okay, what do I do here? And you're going to get 1000 answers. And none of them may feel very good to you. And you're like, I am so much more confused now than before I even ask the question in this group, go into Google, it's the same thing, you're gonna get 1001 different answers. And so I have the biggest question for you is, is what is the answer that is right for you? What are the boundaries that are right, that feel good to you? I'm not saying when I say feel good, there's some uncomfortability that happens. But there's also a knowing like when you know that that's the right answer. And yet, it may be a little uncomfortable, because this is an I know you've heard if you've been listening to my podcast is something I say all the time because I think it's important. Tough Love does not mean that you are tough on them. It means that sometimes you may have to make decisions that are tough to do. And it's of service to them and it's of service to you. And it doesn't mean that you have to do it from a place of anger or resentment. Because none of that feels very good. When we lash out in anger. I can't imagine that that feels very good. It may feel kind of good for a second to say your piece. And then don't you feel just a little bit bad later. And let me tell you, they know how to use that guilt against you. So it's really just paying attention to who do you want to be? Through this journey? Because whether we like it or not, we're in this journey. And so shouldn't we kind of go, alright, if I have to do this kid? Is there places where I can feel better? Is there places where maybe I can work on my own anxiety issues around this topic? Are there places where I can, I don't know how to communicate better. But maybe that's the place where it's like I can ask and get help is how to communicate with them. Because right now, it just, it's like I talk and it's like talking to a brick wall. I don't know how to get through to them. I don't know how to get them to hear me. And this is something that it's like, look, this is a very individual journey that you're on. There's so many things to take into into consideration, when it comes to something that maybe you feel good about slot times. You know, the family, some of the families that I work with, they'll say, Oh, well, I really want to sit down and have that come to Jesus conversation with them. And they need to know, you know, how it's gonna sit? Okay. Okay. All right. Awesome. I think it's really important that you have the ability to say your piece. Now, when you think about that conversation that you're gonna have, how do you? How are you going to feel in that conversation? And how do you think that's conversations gonna go? And they say, Oh, well, I don't think it's going to be very good. I'm probably not going to feel very good about it. And I don't think they're going to I think it's probably just going to start a fight. Yeah, you may be right, you might you make, listen, you should definitely allow people the opportunity to hear you. But if that conversation isn't going to serve you, and that conversation isn't going to serve them, that I'm not sure that like maybe we can think of what is the conversation that you could be having, that you feel good about? And that they feel good about? Maybe they don't feel good about it, but it doesn't really matter. Is there a conversation that serves you and serves them? And let's look at what does that look like instead of the conversation that is just going to be that we know is not going to set Anyone up for success? Or how do we set boundaries that we are in control of so if we have a goal in mind, and boundaries, that's all boundaries are right their goals, this is what we want, this is what we want. For us. This is how we want to behave in these situations. If this person does this, this is how I want to respond. And maybe not in a, like we can't think of the perfect warning. But this is how I want to be in the response. I'm going to be grounded, I want to be balanced, I want to be clear. And it will be all of those things. Right. So how do we set boundaries slash? How do we look at the goals that we want for ourselves, and making sure that we are in control of the outcome of those goals? So what is it that we have control over? Right? And how are we setting boundaries that we have control over the outcomes. And I think that's really important when we think about looking at these situations, because there's so many situations when they get out of rehab, that you're still going to have to look at and get some clarity on communication. There's places where it's like there's there's a balance of, I want to be there for them. I want to support them. And then what is acceptable? What is my expectations here? How do I need to be so many questions, and I think it's important for families to have some more to land to get some of these questions to be answered. Not from what I think as Jin, but how to I hold space for you to come up with the answer that might be right for you. And maybe I can fill in some information that gives you a little bit more context, so that you can make some different, you know, either have different conversations based out of just having a little bit more information, and how do we hold space? How do I hold space for you to explore what's coming up for you and then how do you want to be through the journey that you are having, whether we like it or not. But how do you want to be through this journey? How can you grow as a person? How can you focus on you, and not just buy into some of the things that they're saying and the complexities? And how do you make sure you're communicating that you totally have faith, that they're gonna be able to solve their problems, maybe not on their own, because I'll tell you what, we are human beings. We don't solve problems all on our own, we need support, we need help. And people that think that they can just go through this life all alone and and figure it all out by themselves. It doesn't work out so well for people, I need help all the time. I have a whole group of people in my life, both in recovery and outside of recovery that support me that I can go to and ask for help. Now, I'm not great at it, I admit it, I'm still, there's still a lot of things that I work on, and knowing when and how to ask for help. For me, it's still something I work, but I'm working on it. And there are I'm doing a lot better than I used to, I'll tell you what, but I think it's really important that if your loved one is getting out of rehab, and you have all of these questions, how do you have a place to come to to find some of the answers? Because there's just no way like this podcasts a very generalized pocket? I think it's great. And I think it really helps a lot of people. But does it hone in on your particular needs? On your particular questions, you may have more questions. Now that you've heard this so many more things, maybe can we Oh, my God, what am I supposed to do here, they're acting like this. I can't know that in just, you know, this form. So this is why I really want to have a place for people to land and ask these questions. And maybe it's not just them getting out of rehab, maybe they're still using and you're like, dude, they're in my house, I don't know what to do. Or maybe they're not in your house. And maybe you're just like, I am tired of feeling the way that I feel. I would like to feel something different. I want to live my life. This was supposed to be my time. And my time as I'm still freaking raising them, and they're 30 years old, I should not be doing this, maybe you're frustrated, because you're like, I want my life back. I want to live my life, they need to go live their lives, and I don't feel like I can let go because I feel like if I let go, then something really bad is gonna happen. And I'm never going to be able to live my life. And this is just the way that it is. It's not you can still live your life, you can support them. But there's some things where it's like, you're gonna need help doing that. Because there's, there's just so many things that like, you're gonna have to kind of look at for yourself of, of why, how, what do I do. And it's nice to have another person there to hold that space, and remind you of the things that you said you wanted to do. And then have some like, you know, goals in mind. It's so relieving. I have, there's one client? Well, most of my clients I work with, and they'll say, oh, I don't have to feel like that, or I don't have to do that. Because it's like, I'll look at him and they'll tell me what they're doing. And I can tell that they're not happy about it. And they just feel like it's out of a sense of obligation because they feel like that's what they're supposed to do as a parent. And the relief that they feel when me as the person that has the substance that had the substance abuse issue is looking at him and saying no, that's not your role. There like it's not, no, you don't have to do that. Now let's come up with some ideas that both you feel good about and that serves them like Okay, and so that then we go into that and it's it's an amazing thing to watch people go from really shut down to all of a sudden getting excited. aidid not only about life, but just having normal conversations again, when they run into someone that they know that they know is going to ask them about their loved one, they don't have to feel bad anymore, wouldn't that be a great place to be? You don't have to feel bad any more about when someone comes up to you. So how is so and so. And you feel like, you have to either lie, or they certainly don't want to hear about all your problems, or whatever it is, right? So many things that go on in that moment, that it almost gets to the point where it's like, I don't want to run into anybody that I know, I want to not have any friends anymore because I cannot handle people asking me that question. Wouldn't it be nice to not feel that way? anymore. So this is, you know, what I recommend, I really want you to have the ability to land somewhere. And I want you to reach out to me. And listen, we just have a conversation. It's totally free. And maybe it's a good fit for us to continue working together. Maybe you'd rather some something else. Maybe you're like, Oh no, you know what I really need, you know, therapy, or maybe you've tried therapy and you're like, look, I'm willing to give something else to try. And I really want you to have a place to land. So this is what I want you to do. I want you to either, you can go email me. So it's Jennifer. M, as in Matt firstname.lastname@example.org Is is my email, you can also email me although a lot of times it just goes to spam. So I don't really even use this anymore. But I do have you know, I do check it all the time. So you can also email email me at Jennifer at Maneely consulting.com. You spell Maneely as M is in Matt a in as in, I don't know, Nelly? e l y. So it's m a n e l y consulting.com. And that's also my website, you can go to Maneely consulting.com. And go check out my website, I have some blogs, if you're not ready to talk, I have all sorts of really cool resources on there. And of course, there's always my podcast page as well, that has all the resources, I have some cool videos, you'll check out all of that at unbreakable boundaries podcast.com. And please remember this, I want you to remember to also share this so maybe you yourself aren't going through this and you just liked the podcast because you think it's interesting. But please share this podcast with others because you never know who may need to hear this. And it was what kinda talks about a little bit people are often hiding their battles in this arena and sharing is a great way to provide this valuable resource to a person you may not even know who needs it. And I always want you to remember this one thing. Don't forget, there is always hope even when things seem the most hopeless.